Another EL idle issue..

[Spookedgal]

Hey All,
This is my first post, but I've been lurking for the last couple weeks reading other people's problems and trying some of the suggestions.. I feel the time has come to find an answer relating to my beast specifically, that being a 1996 EL XR6.
Car was running fine, tad low but I'd expect that seeing as the plugs and leads were overdue, no biggie.
Driving along the freeway, my dizzy died. I changed the coil pack as recommended and found visible damage to the spring in the dizzy cap, so just changed the cap, seeing as the cap was off, took the time to change leads seeing as i had already bought them. Car started again, then died. I decided to take it in somewhere to do the dizzy. Dizzy was changed and car hasn't stopped since.
When I picked up my car, it started shaking and idling around 600rpm as soon as I started it. It wasn't doing this in the brief interval it ran after coil, cap and leads were changed. I realized from my stereo being on demo, the ECU was reset, so being a learning ECU I gave it time, still no improvement. I followed instructions on here to relearn it quick, which helped, now it's only running low in drive or reverse. Park is fine, tad shaky. The mechanic who did the dizzy saw it straight away and denied any responsibility saying all he did was change the dizzy as requested. The timing seems fine. Yesterday, I did an oil change and changed plugs which hasn't changed the issue at all. I've run injector cleaner through it and also changed fuel filter. Again, it was running fine with new coil, cap and leads. Whatever happened is when dizzy was put in, it seems. problem is worse when it's cold, I now need to warm it up before driving, and heavy braking causes it to drop to 500rpm where it just shakes like crazy.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Side note, have found coolant coming from gasket on the side of the thermostat housing, doubtful it would affect the idling that much, have run gasket goo around the edge for shits and giggles in case the revs changed at all. Have been unable to find any vacuum leaks anywhere either.

Thanks

[apoc]

Are you sure the timing is right? Firing order is right? Is it crap anytime other than idle?

[Spookedgal]

The timing was double checked while I was standing there, when the dizzy was first in and the problem started. I'll double check the firing order as soon as I pick up the car today.. Got a puncture taking it to be looked at lol.
That's a really helpful suggestion though, thanks for taking the time
Open to any more things to try.. I have a few hrs this arvo to keep playing
Sadly, I'm finding places to get it looked at far and few between, as soon as I say idle issue most places won't touch it.. Despite the fact that I'm quite sure it's nothing major seeing as it was fine before the dizzy was put in.
The place that put the dizzy in we're pretty bad, I've found a few issues since getting it home.. Negative terminal clip is screwed, just lifts off the neg battery terminal plus upper radiator hose which was also fine and recently inspected was leaking coolant because the clamp was too low down, not tight enough AND I could barely tighten it due to the screw having its top bored out so screwdrivers don't fit anymore. Grr!

[Spookedgal]

Sorry, to answer your other question, she's slow to speed up. At a red light in an 80km zone, Ill sit there shaking away at 600rpm, when it's time to go, she's last off the line, very sluggish, rpm needle flies as high as 3000rpm depending how hard I push her to go. Similar to towing a full trailer.

[apoc]

Theres nothing too hard about finding an idle issue, sounds like the people you've been to see just don't want the work.
Also check the vacuum pipe to the MAP sensor, its a black box on the firewall right behind the intake manifold. If thats been bumped off it will run like crap & use lots of fuel.

[apoc]

If the MAP sensor is still plugged in, and firing order is right, the timing is wrong. Sounds like its still retarded too much from your description there!

FYI Firing order for an EL is 1-5-3-6-2-4
Note the base timing has to be set with the car in diagnostic mode. Will link a doco if you need

[Spookedgal]

I'll definitely try all of that as soon as I pick it up today.
Thanks again so so much for taking the time.
I've read people on here having trouble with the map sensor with idle issues, I hadnt really considered checking it tbh, given that it was fine before parts connected to the leads were played with.
Thanks for posting the firing order and a link would be amazing!

[Spookedgal]

Picked car up, firing order correct, timing slightly advanced but not a huge amount, idle manually bumped up improved it a little but seemed to start shaking again as soon as I started revving it... Map sensor intact and all connections tight, can't find any vacuum leaks on it. Only thing I can think of now is to go to an auto elec and see if any fault codes :/

Unrelated, while my car was in today, I had another one in my little garage for a service, gotta be said WHO WOULD BE SO SMART AS TO RATTLE ON A SUMP PLUG!?!?!? Sorry, rant over.. Second rattled sump I've dealt with recently.

Thanks again guys

[apoc]

Did they pull the intake manifold off? The gasket could be dead - ie have an air leak.

Was it in diagnostic mode when the timing was checked? As far as I remember the balancer mark on ELs are aligned with the mark on the timing cover when in base timing mode.

I dont know how much you know / do yourself so just putting things out there. Sounds like its missing TBH.

[Spookedgal]

Intake manifold checked and cleared of any issues.

Knowledge pretty good, I don't DIY as much as I'd like to, I'm usually pretty spot on diagnosing but limited in what I can do at home. Reaching for example, cylinder 6 at 4'11 tall, battling with bosoms and bonnet struts = no Sunday cruise :p

[Spookedgal]

I'm not sure if it was in diagnostic mode, I got the mechanic that had it today to check timing, I don't have a timing light, nor have I timed an engine before tbh

[Hayden]

Have you done a compression test on it lately? also pull out the plugs and take a look to see if they've turned either black or white

[Spookedgal]

I could check the compression, I changed the plugs over yesterday and checked the tips for any clues.. they were just worn.. They had no story to tell me and no signs of a hard life.

[Rollin]

Before checking anything else, make sure the timing is set correctly!

Drive the car so that the engine is warm.

Put it in diagnostic mode - I can't remember if EL is same procedure as EB/D, if it is, with the ignition off you bridge the two pins on the far left hand side of the diagnostic port under the steering column together (far left pin at the top joined to far left pin at the bottom), I use a female spade connector normally, it slides straight on.

Start the car and wait a bit - the idle should rise, stay high for a few seconds then drop.

Once the idle has dropped you make sure the timing marks are lined up using a timing light and twisting the dizzy if necessary.

Then turn the car off, remove whatever it is you used to bridge the terminals and see how it runs.

If no change then at least you know the timing is set correctly, and you can start looking for other issues.

[Bipolar]

I have the same idle issue in my EL and it is from the timing Rollin set after the cam regrind. Simple throttle body clean solves it. Takes about 10 months to start creeping back so a throttle body clean once a year is all I need.

[Spookedgal]

Thanks guys,

I'll give those couple things a go
I'll keep an eye on it this morning too, around my area there's nowhere I can really let her run properly, so looking forward to taking her to work to see how much better she is from yesterday.

Just want her well again, she's such a beautiful beast

[Spookedgal]

Humor me here guys,

My negative terminal won't tighten anymore. It lifts straight off, appears the clamp bolt is threaded somehow.
I've determined that it definitely happened when the dizzy was put in by that mechanic (along with top radiator hose clamp damage and ergo leakage)... Battery was only a week old and I triple checked the tightness plus radio was in demo picking it up so I know it was removed.

Possible cause of idling issue? Just thought of it because a few years back the revs dropped significantly when I changed over the battery with the engine running off the alternator.. Either way I'm picking up a new hose and cable at work tomorrow.

[TechXR]

Co-incidentally I got an idle issue too ATM, and I checked my negative terminal just before; same as you, but mine's not quite threaded yet. Might be better off getting a new terminal?

[Spookedgal]

Whether its the cause of the idling or not, obviously a loose negative connection is an urgent replace.. Luckily I work for a major auto store so I have 40hrs a week to get whatever parts will fix this

I'll hopefully be able to change it over tomorrow after work, I'll post for you if it works to help your issue

[Mr. CVE]

I would check your leads with a multimeter. 1 could be dead.
check the leads are on the right numbers on the dizzy cap.( not all dizzy caps have numbers on them )
check the plugs that they all look roughly the same and have a gap in the plug.
check all injectors are plugged in ( wiggle plugs )

good luck !

[Rollin]

Post up a pic of the battery terminal and the clamp, you might not need to replace it, sometimes you can just loosen them all the way, tap it gently down to the bottom of the terminal with a screwdriver and do it up again and it's fine.

[Spookedgal]

Yup ok, I'll post one, I tried tapping it down, it lifted straight off, I also cleaned out whatever corrosion was there, tried tightening the screw with it off the terminal, no joy, as tight as it went it slid on and slid straight back off.

[Spookedgal]

Update: seems they don't make new negative clamp/wires as a whole anymore. Picked up one from the wreckers and it was so corroded I could barely get the car to start.. Back to my old loose cable. Tomorrow it's booked in for a full diagnostic at a specialist. Fingers crossed they find the issue

[Rollin]

I'm sure I've seen them at supercheap many times???

Failing that, you can cut the clamp off and fit a new clamp to the wire, again, available from supercheap

[Spookedgal]

Sure not just a universal? I work for a more erm professional auto chain, we stock this generic clamp and lead which claims to be universal but is less than a foot long.. Nor do we sell leads, totally overstocked with clamps, but no leads, quick ring around said other places are the same. I don't have the tools to attach a new clamp to the old lead hence the wreckers approach.

Last time I set foot in supercheap, it was run by 15yr olds where even the cheap and nasty stuff was overpriced :p they're good for a wrench you only need for one job or an air freshener, even degreasers expensive there :/

Got a lol from your signature btw, Rollin

[Spookedgal]

Update: quite the tricky issue it seems. They reinstalled the dizzy, got it running slightly smoother. The diagnostics they ran showed up the injectors need a really good clean out and that's why it's idling so badly. Rebooking it in as soon as I can for the cleaning!

[Mr_4.0]

Make sure tps is reading 0.75-0.82 volts at idle. Seen so many people skip this simple task!

[Spookedgal]

I doubt they would have skipped it, they're specialists with these cars.. Seeing as they replicated the issue with the idle on the injectors I'm gonna do that first n worry about everything else once it's done

[ruin41]

Ive had this in the past and i fixed it by changing the TFI module. However i suspect changing it wasnt the fix. Im thinking after it reoccured that i changed the timing when i reinstalled.
I recently took out fuel i had added with a global setting and reset idle and i have wot way over fueled. I found i was back to my poping back in the manifold at slight throttle when cruising. I figured timing was too advanced and knocked it back 2 degrees then 4 and then 6. At 6 it was clearly worse than better so i added 2 to the part throttle setting and its gone. Its quite possible that your timing plug has come loose or has come out. If its there, then you need to pull it when the engine is running and make sure the computer is controling the timing. The ultamate check is to use a timing light to verify this, but if you dont have one the change in engine speed is sufficient to show its working.

[Spookedgal]

I gave up lol I did everything I could given the tools available to me, took it to a specialist who has all the fancy computer diagnostic gear, who checked every cylinder one by one, timed it, checked the previous mechanics work etc. seems the issue is the injectors desperate for a good cleanout. Booked in for Monday to be pulled out and cleaned. The amount of work I had done beforehand ruled out a lot of possibilities.

[Sunboost]

20 something posts in and no-one has mentioned ISC?

The idle dropping when in gear is a tell-tale sign of the ISC not doing it's job.

New coil may have a crack from an over-tightened mount?

If you suspect injectors, try pinch the fuel return line a bit and see if it runs smoother.

[Spookedgal]

Guys,
The beast lives. Injectors cleaned out and driving home I swear I was still sitting at the lights as she tore off down the road.. So..much...power!!!
Thanks for all your help everyone who posted, I appreciate it immensely.
Because the issue only really started when the dizzy was changed, several mechanics, myself included, didn't pick up on blocked injectors.

Now, I have a date with mr Meguirs and a charity cruise to get pretty for!

[Mr_4.0]

I'm thinking they did something else. Not injectors. And would've charged you for injectors.

[Spookedgal]

Nope. Definitely injectors. I had noticed little things prior to all the trouble starting that I narrowed to the injectors myself which are now all gone:)

[Sunboost]

What did you notice?!

[Ef_frmnt]

No one else has said it yet, so I will.. going by the look of your avatar, (tiny as it may be) you should post up some action shots of you working under the bonnet of your car. Might help fix the problem.

[Spookedgal]

Lol nice try.
Only once has a camera come out while I've been working on an engine. Was covered head to toe in oil and grease..... However it was a friends Nissan I was fixing, therefore inappropriate for a Ford forum :p

Besides, car is all fixed so no fixable problem exists. Hehe

I still have a lot of work to do though, she sat near Mark Winterbottoms FPR FG tonight and my analogical manhood shrunk a bit :/