New Rally Series for EA - EL Falcons & VN - VS Commodores 20

[Malakai]

Excellent research Dave. They go a fair bit slower than the big boys in the WRC don't they? I suppose that makes sense though.

[Commando]

Well, there was probably a 5-10 minute gap between the VP and whatever car was before it (a Lancer I think), and then only a 30 second gap after that, so the VP must've been struggling a bit. Also all the fours/small cars were at the start of the field & the V8s at the end. I dunno how staggered the starts were, but it was clear the small cars were setting the pace! Still, throwing a RWD V8 around there would've been awesome, reminded me of taking the EB up into pine plantations back on my Ps

There were a few cars which absolutely F-L-E-W past the spectators, two lancers & the early 80s RX7 in particular! The Lancers & WRXs seemed to all have decent pace, except the bloke that wouldn't let up off the brakes & nearly ended up in the tree

The Z car was the most entertaining, it wasn't the fastest along the straight, but the rear end was jumping around like Mark_TD's trailer, & had plenty of dorifto oppy-lock when powering around the bend.

[Malakai]

Oh damn it that sounds like fun, I can't wait to see an E-Series out there.

[Commando]

Hopefully VIC people can attend the meeting on Tuesday then! Wish I could

Formation meeting for the EA - El Falcon & VN - VS Commodore rally series will be held:

Venue: Victorian Rover Centre
Hunt Reserve
1 Highland Ave
Clayton North VIC 3168 (off Ferntree Gully Rd)

Time: 7.30 pm

Date: 29th July 2008

Contact No: John on 0429007080

Looking forward to meeting you, remember this weekend a taste or what you can expect next year at Rawson Village, North of Moe, action kicks of at 12 noon till 8 pm
service park will be open to the public.

[Bipolar]

Maybe someone can take a video camera?

[TAXI]

Found a problem for the ford`s, factory supercharged vr vs.

[AaronEF8]

Found a problem for the ford`s, factory supercharged vr vs.

They won't be letting supercharged V6's in.

Dave that VP sounds awesome!

[Commando]

It certainly wasn't a revvy engine! Sounded deep & slapper-ish as fark, like it had twin unbalanced 3" pipes dumping at the diff or something. Wasn't particularly loud though. When it was further away in the bush it sounded like a chainsaw/Harley from Hell rather than a Commodore V8

With 176rwkw and a standard intake manifold, I'm guessing the heads had been tickled & they'd slotted a cam in (I saw the engine bay but the camera was dead by then )

I didn't get a chance to take a look under the car, but I've got the contact card of the co-driver so I'll email him at work tomorrow & try & scab some photos/build descriptions

[Commando]

I'm emailing this to the co-driver of the VP. If there's any other questions you guys think need asking, or any re-wording of questions listed below, let me know & I'll email him again.

Hi Jason,

I came up and had a quick chat with yourself & the driver (whose name I've unfortunately forgotten!) on the weekend before & after the rally, as my car club (E-Series Owners Club, http://www.eseries.com.au / http://www.boostedfalcon.net) is interested in participating in a potential EA-EL vs VN-VS budget series in 2009. This series will be limited to six cylinder engines, with the cars most likely kept standard-ish apart from safety aspects (to keep costs down/ensure parity).

I saw you guys in action on the last stage, & even though the WRXs & Lancers seemed to have the pace, the Commodores had more of a "wow" factor when seeing them skating up the straight! (The Z-car was the most entertaining though, it was all over the shop!). Here's a short movie of the VP, it's about half a meg in size: http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/ ... ure014.flv

I don't really know where to start with the questions… So please forgive me if they seem all over the place.

Q: The 5.0, it puts out 176rwkw, which is a fair bit above standard! When the bonnet was up I noticed that you had the standard intake manifold on, which I'm lead to believe is kind of restrictive on Commodores (as the standard intake manifold on 5.0 EB-EL Falcons is). What engine components (or tuning/fuelling… ECU, injectors, fuel pump, etc) were you allowed to change under the rally regs in order to obtain your 176rwkw? I'm not after any team secrets, like if you guys have a particular kickass custom cam profile, just wondering on what could/couldn't be replaced, and what could/couldn't be modified, ie porting the std heads, or fitting roller-rockers to the std heads, or replacing with alloys...

Q: The exhaust sounded pretty nuts! I didn't think to have a close look at it, but it sounded like an unbalanced twin 2.5 or 3" dumped at the diff? Were you allowed to fit extractors or did you have to run the std headers?

Q: Your gearbox, it was a 4 speed right? What gear(s) did you spend most of your time in? What speeds do you typically take hairpins at, and what speeds do you get up to on long straights? Also relating to this question, Jason mentioned the diff was welded (I hear all the P-platers in my club going "siiiiick!" haha), but what ratio was it, a standard 3.08 or something shorter? It would be awesome if something like a Lokka centre was allowed, some of the club members have Lokka centres & they think they're the duck's nuts.

Q: Were you allowed to muck around with your tailshaft? Stronger material, or two-piece, etc etc… Do you run a loop, or other safety-related components?

Q: What changes/improvements have been made to your brakes? John Ernst (drives an Excel in your series, #31) said his brakes are pretty much standard, although he has some special-material brakepads which have lasted him two years. This is for a light Hyundai though, not a big heavy sedan! Also, do you have a hydraulic handbrake or just the std cable one. EA-ED Falcons have the sh*tty pull-out park brake, if we're allowed to fit up a hydraulic pull-up handbrake (as-well-as, not instead of the std handbrake) that would be awesome.

Q: Suspension! Once again, I'm not after any team secrets but if you could give me some pointers on particular brands that cover Falcons/Commodores for springs & shockers suitable for rallying, that would be great. Also, do you guys use "ordinary" coilovers or can you go for adjustable stuff such as Konis, etc. Can you customise other components such as trailing arms, etc, providing they're the same style as what the car came out with (ie different swaybars, reinforcing mounting points, etc, so things don't rip out, etc?). Jason, you mentioned that after winning the novice award a couple of years back you upgraded a lot of the suspension components (including bushes) in the VP. Would you be able to give a rough list of what was replaced?

Q: Underbody strengthening. Were you guys allowed to go to town on adding extra bracing underneath to stiffen/strenghten the body? Provided the bracing was considered safe & not leaving the car vulnerable to snagging roots/rocks/etc due to being lower than the rest of the underbody, etc. Same deal with up front in case you stack, were you allowed to brace the engine bay/rad support/etc?

Q: Roll cages. How much did yours set you back if you don't mind me asking? I also noticed some sheet metal riveted over the parcel shelf & there the back seat used to be. I don't see sheet metal really helping with stiffening up the body, so was this an aesthetic thing, or a noise reduction thing, or a safety thing (if you've got tyres in the back that may possibly get un-stuck if you have a bad enough stack), or a bit of all of the above? Was there any extra bracing behind the sheetmetal?

Q: What kind of radio/communications gear is required, and how much did that set you back?

Q: How many sets of tyres do you typically go through per round (or what's your typical range… ie sometimes tyres may last you for two rounds, other times you may need to replace all 4 twice in 1 round? Etc)

I think that's about all I can come up with for now! Even if you guys can only answer one or two of these questions it'll be a great help

Also, if you have any pictures/build details online (or in electronic format that can be emailed) I'd love to see them, as would several of the club members interested in the rally series.

Thanks once again for having a chat with me on the weekend guys, I really appreciated it.

Cheers

-Dave Smith-

[EdFairmontGhia]

is anyone going to the meeting from that end of town?

[Commando]

Update from the co-driver of the tough green VP:

Hi Dave,
answers underneath. The CAMS Manual (http://www.camsmanual.com.au/) is always a handy reference for a lot of this info.

I don't really know where to start with the questions… So please forgive me if they seem all over the place.
Q: The 5.0, it puts out 176rwkw, which is a fair bit above standard! When the bonnet was up I noticed that you had the standard intake manifold on, which I'm lead to believe is kind of restrictive on Commodores (as the standard intake manifold on 5.0 EB-EL Falcons is). What engine components (or tuning/fuelling… ECU, injectors, fuel pump, etc) were you allowed to change under the rally regs in order to obtain your 176rwkw? I'm not after any team secrets, like if you guys have a particular kickass custom cam profile, just wondering on what could/couldn't be replaced, and what could/couldn't be modified, ie porting the std heads, or fitting roller-rockers to the std heads, or replacing with alloys...

I am really not too sure about the engine stuff.... I think there has been some head work, and maybe some work on the Cam, but not really sure. I also think it may have a dual throttle body, but again i am really not too sure!! We are still using the standard ECU, cos we dont need too much control over that sort of stuff. We have a pod style intake which makes a heap of difference just by itself.

Q: The exhaust sounded pretty nuts! I didn't think to have a close look at it, but it sounded like an unbalanced twin 2.5 or 3" dumped at the diff? Were you allowed to fit extractors or did you have to run the std headers?

As far as I know, it is extractors into a 3" system, with a hotdog at the back. We still use the Cat, as that is a requirement for roadworthy, and has just been easier to work around!

Q: Your gearbox, it was a 4 speed right? What gear(s) did you spend most of your time in? What speeds do you typically take hairpins at, and what speeds do you get up to on long straights? Also relating to this question, Jason mentioned the diff was welded (I hear all the P-platers in my club going "siiiiick!" haha), but what ratio was it, a standard 3.08 or something shorter? It would be awesome if something like a Lokka centre was allowed, some of the club members have Lokka centres & they think they're the duck's nuts.

I think it is a ford single rail 4 speed as used in the Cortinas. again as far as I know, the ratios are pretty standard. The benefit of this box is it is cheap and seems to be strong as! we have only broken 1 in about 6 years of rallying!

Q: Were you allowed to muck around with your tailshaft? Stronger material, or two-piece, etc etc… Do you run a loop, or other safety-related components?

Again, I think it is pretty much standard. It is a rule to run a tailshaft loop. A lot of this stuff can be read about on the CAMS website by looking at the CAMS manual of motorsport

http://www.camsmanual.com.au/ Sectiom 6 general requirements of cars and drivers, and section 11 road events is what you would need to look at.

Q: What changes/improvements have been made to your brakes? John Ernst (drives an Excel in your series, #31) said his brakes are pretty much standard, although he has some special-material brakepads which have lasted him two years. This is for a light Hyundai though, not a big heavy sedan! Also, do you have a hydraulic handbrake or just the std cable one. EA-ED Falcons have the sh*tty pull-out park brake, if we're allowed to fit up a hydraulic pull-up handbrake (as-well-as, not instead of the std handbrake) that would be awesome.

Currently we are running VT discs and Calipers, as well as "racing" style pads. The manual says brakes are free. They are pretty much useless till they get hot! the hotter we get em, the better they work. What usually happens is lots of hard braking into the next section to warm them up. Believe it or not, good brakes can make up so much time during the event! We do run a hydro handbrake, and to be honest if you make no other mod to the car, do this one! The original hand brake must be there and be functional.

Q: Suspension! Once again, I'm not after any team secrets but if you could give me some pointers on particular brands that cover Falcons/Commodores for springs & shockers suitable for rallying, that would be great. Also, do you guys use "ordinary" coilovers or can you go for adjustable stuff such as Konis, etc. Can you customise other components such as trailing arms, etc, providing they're the same style as what the car came out with (ie different swaybars, reinforcing mounting points, etc, so things don't rip out, etc?). Jason, you mentioned that after winning the novice award a couple of years back you upgraded a lot of the suspension components (including bushes) in the VP. Would you be able to give a rough list of what was replaced?

Again, Brett would have a better idea of this stuff, but as far as I am aware, I think it is pretty much all Pedders stuff. ie. Nolathane type bushes, etc. As for what is allowed, check the CAMS Manual especially here where it talks about the requirements for PRC Cars

http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/road/1 ... C_Q308.pdf

Q: Underbody strengthening. Were you guys allowed to go to town on adding extra bracing underneath to stiffen/strenghten the body? Provided the bracing was considered safe & not leaving the car vulnerable to snagging roots/rocks/etc due to being lower than the rest of the underbody, etc. Same deal with up front in case you stack, were you allowed to brace the engine bay/rad support/etc?

Minimum requirement would be a substantial sump guard. other than that, we have not made too much additional bracing. remember, the car still needs to be able to pass a roadworthy. The roll cage provides some additional stiffness. Part of the roadworthy requirements includes things like crumple zones etc. they take a dim view of you creating some kind of killdozer to use on public roads, which is essentially what you would be doing if you make additional bracing into the engine compartment. We try and make the underneath as clear from low hanging things as possible. this is just common sense, as the car does drag along the crown in the road from time to time.

Q: Roll cages. How much did yours set you back if you don't mind me asking? I also noticed some sheet metal riveted over the parcel shelf & there the back seat used to be. I don't see sheet metal really helping with stiffening up the body, so was this an aesthetic thing, or a noise reduction thing, or a safety thing (if you've got tyres in the back that may possibly get un-stuck if you have a bad enough stack), or a bit of all of the above? Was there any extra bracing behind the sheetmetal?

Roll Cages I think the one in the commodore was around $1k. That would be pretty much the minimum you would expect to pay these days. You can do it at home etc, however it still needs to have the engineering numbers and calculations tested. the colorbond is there, as the manual says there needs to be a flame and liquid proof barrier if the rear seats are removed, and the fuel tank is in the boot. Guess where our tank is!!! Also adding to this, we also run fuel and brake Hydro lines through the car for protection. Tyres actually live on the rear passenger floor, screwed down with a big plate and nut.

Q: What kind of radio/communications gear is required, and how much did that set you back?

We use a Philtronics enduro intercom unit it was about $400 a few years back... more details here... http://www.philtronics.com.au/motorsport/ Web site is a little clumsy, but I am sure details are still there. You will also need a rally tripmeter, We also use a philtronics unit for that, others use terratrips or Brantz, or some even still use haldas. All are expensive!!!

Q: How many sets of tyres do you typically go through per round (or what's your typical range… ie sometimes tyres may last you for two rounds, other times you may need to replace all 4 twice in 1 round? Etc)

How long is a piece of string!!!! but in reality it depends a lot on the event, number of service points, and the roads/areas u are running on. Generally Blue metal roads will see at least a set of rears, usually we will change the fronts and rears once per event. Last weekend, however we only changed when we had a puncture.

I think that's about all I can come up with for now! Even if you guys can only answer one or two of these questions it'll be a great help

Also, if you have any pictures/build details online (or in electronic format that can be emailed) I'd love to see them, as would several of the club members interested in the rally series.

we havent really done too much of that.. we built the car after we rolled the previous VH and we did it all in about 6 weeks. need less to say there was a lot of development gone in since!!!

Basically however, after the cost of the car, you are probably going to be up for about $1000 + for a roll cage, this also means appropriate harnesses and seats, A roll cage depending on materials used and the amount of bar work can be a lot more than this. I knwo of one car out there with a $5k roll cage, expensive yes, but only weighs 30 kg. so there is horses for courses! I would perhaps budget about another $1000 for nav gear and intercoms. Harnesses etc, can be about $300 each depending on brand/ type/ratings. Also it is wise to ditch the factory seats. again another $1500 -$2k dependign on brands/ material/ specs. I believe it is wise to move the fuel tank into the boot. This is a big thing. the factory tanks under the boot floor are only asking for hassle in my opinion. this was proved by the other VN there on the weekend. They split their tank and had to withdraw. add to these numbers, add tyres, and enough wheels, Hydraulic hand brake lines and stuff, suspension development and improvements, and you can spend $2k-$15+ and that is before you even start to think about engine mods and stuff.

You will also need to factor in the need to have driving suits, (FIA spec) Fireproofs, and helmets. again quite pricey, also need to have a quality helmet too. Event entry also tends to be about $500 per event. that is prior to fuel, accommodation, food, service crew, towcar, trailer etc. I am not trying to put you off, but trying to give you some insight into the actual costs of the competing. Believe me, Rallying is something I truly love, but I also admit it it also very expensive. Brett and I have an arrangement, where I usually pay entry and accommodation, and he covers the rest. I really have a pretty sweet deal. this is also another factor to consider. I really love the car, and rallying. I have been asked to ride with other, more competitive cars and drivers, but have always knocked em back, cos I love the commodore so much. It is awesome to ride in!

As I said tho, always happy to answer questions that I can!

Cheers

JH

Naturally, a lot of this will depend on what will be written into the series rules, especially re suspension and stuff.

What a legend

I'm unsure about one or two of his answers, like the intake manifold was the "bunch of bananas" style, I thought they had a single t/b off the front? Unless they've made some funky piping that splits into two for dual t/bs (why?)...

It sounds hell tough for a single 3", but I'll take his word for it. God damn, why did I get a Windsor

The words "Hydro Handrake" probably have gotten Rollin & SLYXR8 all excite.

Moving the fuel tank & various lines to inside the car is a smart idea! I wouldn't have thought of that, but it makes so much sense!

lol @ Corty gearbox in a Commodore. Who would've thought. I made the assumption it was an Aussie 4 speed. I suppose if we go ahead with a car, a tough 4 speed may be better than mucking around with a T5 (plus I don't think 5th would be used much at all...)

I suppose a lot of the above questions can be confirmed/corrected after the outcome of tonight's meeting? PLEASE SOMEBODY GO TONIGHT AND TAKE NOTES OR SOMETHING!!!one

[YBYAVL]

hydrolic handbrakes r tuff, i had 1 in my datsun 180B...piece of piss to whip up too, using an old clutch master cylinder....
as for movin the tank inside the car, iduno if ud be alowd to in the E-vs-V series as they might wana retain factory mouting positions for the tank
for safety purposes. *shrugz*

[Commando]

So did anyone go last night?

[Commando]

Hellooooo did anyone go?

[krisisdog]

I think thats a neg Dave.

[pHaT`eL]

[Commando]

Spewing

lol Pete

[AaronEF8]

Dave, the VN 5.0 manifolds are rated to about 400bhp, they have the TB at the front on the side, GenIII's have the forward facing TB. They could have welded another fitting for a TB on the drivers side of the manifold as well, unless the guy was trippin'. The next step up for a 5.0 is a Group A or COME Racing twin TB manifold really. And they sound 11ty times tougher than a 5.0 Windsor

I don't think the Falcon/Commodore rally series will allow using single rail etc gearboxes, they require custom bellhousings etc which will raise the cost. Interesting point on the brakes though, I wouldn't have thought they would make such a big difference on dirt, the rally tyres must do their job well.

LOL @ building a killdozer for the road. I thought thats what rally cars were for.

It would have been a lot easier if somone went on the night, rather than speculating about it on here. Hopefully John Ernst can post some info about the night.

I didn't go either

[Commando]

Really? Why the fark the VNs have the same power rating? Crappy cam/tune?

Grp A manifolds are horny as

I'd say the brake pad material is "special" to deal with mud, dust, etc, which normal pads may not like to deal with. John said his brakes worked best when hot (better than std warmed up brakes I mean)

I'm looking forward to hearing from John too.

[YBYAVL]

go where??? the meeting??
i thought it was on the 29th??

[Commando]

Naw, it was on the 26th.

Formation meeting for the EA - El Falcon & VN - VS Commodore rally series will be held:

Venue: Victorian Rover Centre
Hunt Reserve
1 Highland Ave
Clayton North VIC 3168 (off Ferntree Gully Rd)

Time: 7.30 pm

Date: 29th July 2008

Contact No: John on 0429007080

Looking forward to meeting you, remember this weekend a taste or what you can expect next year at Rawson Village, North of Moe, action kicks of at 12 noon till 8 pm
service park will be open to the public.

[YBYAVL]

Naw, it was on the 26th.

Formation meeting for the EA - El Falcon & VN - VS Commodore rally series will be held:

Venue: Victorian Rover Centre
Hunt Reserve
1 Highland Ave
Clayton North VIC 3168 (off Ferntree Gully Rd)

Time: 7.30 pm
Date: 29th July 2008

Contact No: John on 0429007080

Looking forward to meeting you, remember this weekend a taste or what you can expect next year at Rawson Village, North of Moe, action kicks of at 12 noon till 8 pm
service park will be open to the public.

see, 29th....so the meetings been then?? and no 1 went??
fukit, lets go driftin...me an pat r thinkn about startin an e-series drift team jus go to fuk around at winton

[Gunns]

it is only the 27th today

[EFFalcon]

fukit, lets go driftin...me an pat r thinkn about startin an e-series drift team jus go to fuk around at winton

i'd support that.
dare i say it'd prolly get a bit more interest

[YBYAVL]

it is only the 27th today

thats my point....lol

im curious to no wat these guys r on about wen they ask if anybody went....
co it hasnt happend yet...

EFFalcon - definatly more interest, stormy is waitn for me to get my ass into gear an get my car out there to join in the fun, im tryn to find sum more falcon
owners to come, maybe we can get a team happening or somthing...assuming ya'll can drive

[EFFalcon]

I'd love to be able to 'drift' properly, but i wouldn't be doing it in the EF
i'll support you guys first

[Commando]

I'm a fucking idiot.

Still can't make the one on the 29th. I thought it was LAST tuesday

[serial_fool]

If you get hold of some specs for a rollcage from CAMS you could check out a 2nd hand E series speedway car rollcage. They usually go fairly cheap (as in under $1000) but I'd trust my life with one in the event of a rollover (I know from experience..) Theres plently of Street stock boys over in the Melbournish area that'd probably have a E series cage laying around battling the elements. I know we do.

[YBYAVL]

wat do yuz want for it?
if its jus battling the elements, ill slap it in a shell an go sideways

[ernysp76]

REMINDER MEETING TONIGHT.

As if Ihave to remind you but just in case anyone has forgotten a meeting will be held tonight to discuss the possible formation on the new rally series. We'll try and keep the meeting tight so we'll all have an oportunity to have a look see and ask some questions. Hopefully after tonight you'll be able to guage the level of support out there and feel more comfortable about getting started in building a car.


Details again:

Venue: Victorian Rover Centre
Hunt Reserve
1 Highland Ave
Clayton North VIC 3168 (off Ferntree Gully Rd)

Time: 7.30 pm
Date: 29th July 2008

Contact No: John on 0429007080

[YBYAVL]

can sum PLZ go to this meeting an take a pen an pad or a recorder or sum for of copying device
its my b'day tonite an im getn dragged out by the missus so unfortunaly i cant attend....fukn women, always getn in the way
i dare say were guna be driftinh but

[pHaT`eL]

Drift team can joint Stormy and Mackie

[YBYAVL]

thats the plan, spoke to stormy this morning, he wants me to be redy for winton on the 16 of aug, i think he sed....
hopfuly can be done....

[redroo]

So what happened at the meeting and when is the test day going to be at yea?

[Commando]

Don't know, don't think anyone went

Might contact John again if I get the time.

[Kenaz]

thats the plan, spoke to stormy this morning, he wants me to be redy for winton on the 16 of aug, i think he sed....
hopfuly can be done....

Do you know if he is he going to be at Winton on the 16th?

I might give him a call,I didn't realise the XE was back on the road..

[YBYAVL]

thats the plan, spoke to stormy this morning, he wants me to be redy for winton on the 16 of aug, i think he sed....
hopfuly can be done....

Do you know if he is he going to be at Winton on the 16th?

I might give him a call,I didn't realise the XE was back on the road..

ye he sed he was aiming for it....hes dropin an AU engine in it last i herd, with boost....
duno if its guna be boosted straight away wen its back but ye,

"ive realized i need a turbo, the N/A dusnt cut it anymore"

cant wait to see the cut go off wen its done, gota con him into sum industrial action

[Kenaz]

Yeah I've seen some industrial action vids from back in the day

I think he got his hands on a AU VCT motor with only like 5000km

[ernysp76]

Finally we have the draft series regs to look at if I can get them up here it would be good to get your comments about them.

http://www.4shared.com/file/63465333/35 ... nline.html

[Commando]

Hi again John, thanks for the update!

Things have gone pretty quiet here regarding this upcoming series, hopefully this will inject more interest into this venture.

Two cars will be tested back to back at Mafeking Park near Yea, based on the testing parity issues will need to be addressed at this stage we are looking at time differnentuals (ie. for km of competitive rallying X car would be given 1 or 2 seconds advantage over Y car.

^^^ Any more info on the above? Has this happened yet? Would be fun to go out & see this happen if it hasn't gone ahead yet.

I've had a very quick skim through the draft & the only thing that concerns me is this paragraph on page 1:

Parts from any EA – EL Ford may be used upon another EA – EL Falcon, as long as the part(s) can be clearly identified as a standard Ford replacement part. Only 6 cylinder engines are eligible.

Since EAs are the lightest, and EL XR6s had 164kw engines (with a better head/larger valves/better cam, ECU, better exhaust system, etc), 3.45:1 diff ratios, and a heap of other power/driveline goodies, I predict that most entrants will want to enter an EA body with an EL XR6 driveline. Anything "less" will be heavier and less powerful, for example a Series 1 EB with 4 speed auto, 120kw CFI engine, 3.08:1 diff... Unless in the quote above this will be taken into consideration (so the slow EB example is given say a 30 second handicap over an EA with EL XR6 driveline)