Holden VS FORD Who can admit if they are wrong?

[XR6 Hulk]

Hi,

I am a ford man. But I have owned Holdens and Fords...

Im tired that on Ford Forums, all people say is how good the I6 is and that the Holden V6 is crap. On Holden Forums all they say is how coarse the I6 is and how the V6 will flog it. People are eye eyed all over the place..

Im a fair man.. These are my conclusions (Both Auto)

Holden VN-VS V6, jack the rabbit take offs. Generally lighter cars and quicker off the line and therefore in a straight line than the ford flat to the floor. Holdens have traditionally been shorter geared to get out of the blocks quicker. But catch one of these at the bottom of a hill in the wrong gear and its just pathetic, no torque. Also after about 120km/h they just die in the ass even flat out. Great on fuel economy but put 5 people in the car and you would think the car is tied to a tree, it just doesnt move with some weight in it. When they are on song they are pretty quick, Id say overall quicker than Ford EB-EL 4.0's

FORD EB-EL, 4.0 massive torque, almost V8 like. Heaps better cruiser, but the gears are ridiculously long. Dont feel as quick as the Holdens flat out acceleration and have always been more thirsty. These are far stronger motors for towing. They keep pulling when the holden V6 gives up the ghost (after 120km/h). They are also far more responsive to mods.

why is it that Holden have traditionally gone for the jack the rabbit take offs, short gearing but no top end and ford have the moderate take off, long gears but nice big punch in the top end?

What are your comments on the charateristics of these type of motors?

[stalker]

you got it dead on, but if you look at them both as an auto, its a different story, the gears for the holden are quite similar, where as the fords are made much shorter, gives it alot of punch of the line and still has alot of kick in top gear

[[Sterling]]

my brothers VS was the same fantastic off the mark but couldnt tow for shit!
before the old man gave me his car, it was crap off the line (stock) but could pull 110 up a hill towing a ute with a full car and keep speeding up.

[Commando]

The jack the rabbit take offs assist the jink in the Holden driver's step.

The 3.8 was all that Holden could get in the late 80s in the GM lineup after teh economy changed & it was no longer viable to import RB30s. They made the best that they could with a shit motor. The only good thing in their driveline is the gearing of the auto, which saves it (combined with the weight difference) from being annihilated by the 4.0 in every aspect of driving.

Having said that I wouldn't say no to a VN 5.0 shitta/thrashcar

[XRated]

Seems like a reasonable view. Have you driven them both in manual guise? Not a huge difference in an auto or manual Commo, but it's a different story in a Falcon.

I think the standard Falcon BTRs are the biggest let down - a 5-speed makes a massive difference. I used to get owned by a friend's 2002 manual Corolla consistently in my auto ED even though it had loads more torque. After my ED was manual he couldn't ever do it again.

[oneredED]

Hi,

I am a ford man. But I have owned Holdens and Fords...

Im tired that on Ford Forums, all people say is how good the I6 is and that the Holden V6 is crap. On Holden Forums all they say is how coarse the I6 is and how the V6 will flog it. People are eye eyed all over the place..

I hate these arguments, but I enjoy them so so much at the same time. There's already been talk by gerendasi of buick's and what not, and he was pummelled by the E-series faithful for good reason. But IMO the blown commodore motor's give more INITIAL bang for buck than our falcon motors do. As I posted in another thread just before, $2500 on an eaton blown buick should net you a low to mid 12, model dependant of course. I know falcon's can produce some good numbers, but on the track these commo's are holding their own.

Flame me, IDGAF hahaha

[XRated]

Jared I know what you're saying about the love-hate thing! But what is this 12-second Buick business (crap?) you speak of? I'm assuming you're referring to the factory supercharged V6... If so, I thought those were pathetic (mid-high 15s stock) and the smaller pulley kits available get next to sweet **** all in terms of performance??

PS: You're a tosser

[smokin ef]

Id say overall quicker than Ford EB-EL 4.0's


i laugh in your face at this comment lol.. iv raced my mate with a 5 sp vr ( i have a 5sp ef), never i repeat NEVER has he bet me... we both have minor mods, mine being a k&n filter, exhust, 3.45 diff gears and thats about it... hes got a cam, ss induction intake, full exhust, 3.45 diff and a few other goodies.. but still every time i beat him by atleast a carlength over 3/400 meters.. oh and my cars don 150,XXXkms were his has done 167,xxx.. but i doubt that will make much of a differance.

[stalker]

Id say overall quicker than Ford EB-EL 4.0's


i laugh in your face at this comment lol.. iv raced my mate with a 5 sp vr ( i have a 5sp ef), never i repeat NEVER has he bet me... we both have minor mods, mine being a k&n filter, exhust, 3.45 diff gears and thats about it... hes got a cam, ss induction intake, full exhust, 3.45 diff and a few other goodies.. but still every time i beat him by atleast a carlength over 3/400 meters.. oh and my cars don 150,XXXkms were his has done 167,xxx.. but i doubt that will make much of a differance.

as we were saying as a manual the falcon is unbeaten, the thing is as an auto they are slow as **** of the line, but top end they will catch up quickly

[smokin ef]

yea true but i was just voicing my opinion

[stalker]

:p yea well thats half the reason my car is getting converted soon, about a week now. other wise its hell stock, got a full exhaust, extractors to tip. but it should be nice and fast as a manual

[EBOOST]

yeah in auto they are poo off the line.
and oneredED i have a mate that has spent a fair amount of money on his vt supercharged and only netted a 13.7 @ 98mph with a 1.6 60'.
he has pulley kit ,injectors, tune, 3inch exhaust, extractors, methanol injection and a few other things. its quick as off the line but then its not that flash.
cheers josh.

[oneredED]

Jared I know what you're saying about the love-hate thing! But what is this 12-second Buick business (crap?) you speak of? I'm assuming you're referring to the factory supercharged V6... If so, I thought those were pathetic (mid-high 15s stock) and the smaller pulley kits available get next to sweet **** all in terms of performance??

PS: You're a tosser

Visit Forced Induction Technologies (v6supercharged.com.au) and yes I'm referring to the factory blown commodores.

They have a bunch of customers cars up with their products and quarter times.

As per:

Owner: Justin
Vehicle: 1992 Supercharged VP Commodore
Dyno Power Results: 314 rwhp (234 rwkw)
Best Official Times Recorded: 12.50 sec @ 108mph
Modifications:

* 16 PSI Universal Power-up Pulley Kit
* Supercharged V6 Intercooler Kit
* Front Mount Intercooler and Plumbing
* Intercooler Mounting Accessory Kit
* 3" Mandrel Bent Cat Back Exhaust
* HM Stainless Extractors
* MAF-less tune
* LSD (3.46 Ratio)

Owner: Michael Gordon
Vehicle: 1998 Supercharged VT SS Commodore
Dyno Power Results: 296 rwhp (221 rwkw)
Best Official Times Recorded: 12.60 sec @ 106mph
Modifications:

* 17 PSI Universal Power-up Pulley Kit
* Supercharged V6 Intercooler Kit
* Front Mount Intercooler and Plumbing
* Intercooler Mounting Accessory Kit
* Hot Cam
* Twin Exhaust
* Extractors
* Manifold Heat Insulator
* LSD (3.73 Ratio)

ETC ETC. None of these cars have had an insane amount of money spent on them. Full exhaust, pulley kit, intercooler kit seems to be the norm.

I'm not really into a debate, but I actually thought it was pretty cool that they manage to get such good times with such low power

[oneredED]

yeah in auto they are poo off the line.
and oneredED i have a mate that has spent a fair amount of money on his vt supercharged and only netted a 13.7 @ 98mph with a 1.6 60'.
he has pulley kit ,injectors, tune, 3inch exhaust, extractors, methanol injection and a few other things. its quick as off the line but then its not that flash.
cheers josh.

I'm not sure why he went aftermarket injectors, their injectors are good for quite a bit more than our shitty injectors, nor the methanol injecttion when water to air coolers are becoming so much cheaper.

Without itemising the every conceivable component and modification, here are the major ones of interest:

Measured Dyno Power Output: 330rwhp (250rwkw)

Best ¼ Mile: 11.48sec @ 117mph

* FIT Air-to-Air Intercooler
* 20psi Boost Pulley
* Standard L67 Short Motor
* Specification Camshaft
* Porting and Polishing Heads
* Standard Injectors
* 2 x Bosch Motorsport Fuel Pumps
* LSD Diff with 3.9 Ratio
* Fully Rebuilt Auto Transmission
* Hi-Stall

Car Type: 1989 VN Commodore

EDIT: found vid of last car http://youtube.com/watch?v=s_3qxNodbf8 seems to fairly hammer off the line

[eafalcon6]

Hi,

I am a ford man. But I have owned Holdens and Fords...

Im tired that on Ford Forums, all people say is how good the I6 is and that the Holden V6 is crap. On Holden Forums all they say is how coarse the I6 is and how the V6 will flog it. People are eye eyed all over the place..

Im a fair man.. These are my conclusions (Both Auto)

Holden VN-VS V6, jack the rabbit take offs. Generally lighter cars and quicker off the line and therefore in a straight line than the ford flat to the floor. Holdens have traditionally been shorter geared to get out of the blocks quicker. But catch one of these at the bottom of a hill in the wrong gear and its just pathetic, no torque. Also after about 120km/h they just die in the ass even flat out. Great on fuel economy but put 5 people in the car and you would think the car is tied to a tree, it just doesnt move with some weight in it. When they are on song they are pretty quick, Id say overall quicker than Ford EB-EL 4.0's

FORD EB-EL, 4.0 massive torque, almost V8 like. Heaps better cruiser, but the gears are ridiculously long. Dont feel as quick as the Holdens flat out acceleration and have always been more thirsty. These are far stronger motors for towing. They keep pulling when the holden V6 gives up the ghost (after 120km/h). They are also far more responsive to mods.

why is it that Holden have traditionally gone for the jack the rabbit take offs, short gearing but no top end and ford have the moderate take off, long gears but nice big punch in the top end?

What are your comments on the charateristics of these type of motors?

[AaronEF8]

The blown V6's are a bit of a wolf in sheeps clothing, plus the blower whine sounds fkn awesome. But I am curious, how do you fit an air-air cooler to a roots blown V6?

[oneredED]

The blown V6's are a bit of a wolf in sheeps clothing, plus the blower whine sounds fkn awesome. But I am curious, how do you fit an air-air cooler to a roots blown V6?

Spacer plate between manifold and blower. Can't find any good pics of the plate itself (just googled), but here's a broad one to give you the idea.

[XRated]

Oh you didn't bite.

Very quick times but it seems like a lot more than 2.5k spent (even after exhaust).

[braiden]

Well, talking engines I am no expert.

However, if you want to talk about things aside from the engine, here's a couple.

The Commo's have some very simple but clever and useful features. For example, you can leave the headlight switch on all the time if you drive with your lights on in the day (as I do), but when you switch off the ignition and open the driver's door, they go off. Start the car, they automatically come back on.

In the VR/VS, the Speed Alert has a digital speedo in it also if you hold the up and down buttons when you start the car. Nifty feature.

Downsides, the boot release is a cable, whereas in the Falcon it's a solenoid. Only the center of the back seat comes down, which is frustrating. The dash is hard to get apart also. Whereas in the Falcon, all the back seats come down, and the dash is a lot simpler to get apart.

I am talking in terms of VP-VS and EA-ED.

[XR6 Hulk]

[quote="Commando"]The jack the rabbit take offs assist the jink in the Holden driver's step.

Hahaha, you remember that thread... who ever wrote that knows what they are talking about..

I think it depends upon what we drivers prefer (in autos) do you want the torque and power after 120km/h or the jack the rabbit take offs and ability to do burnouts.

P-Platers no doubt love the commodore V6 so they can sit at the lights and tear away at their opposition (until they hit second gear and get reeled in). Falcon owners appreciate the better base for mods and spell the word talk T-O-R-Q-U-E which isnt in a commodore V6 vocabulary.

[makvaiielles_xr6]

##I think it depends upon what we drivers prefer (in autos) do you want the torque and power after 120km/h or the jack the rabbit take offs and ability to do burnouts.

well i have an stock auto in mine. and she can do burn outs

[eafalcon6]

The jack the rabbit take offs assist the jink in the Holden driver's step.

Hahaha, you remember that thread... who ever wrote that knows what they are talking about..

I think it depends upon what we drivers prefer (in autos) do you want the torque and power after 120km/h or the jack the rabbit take offs and ability to do burnouts.

P-Platers no doubt love the commodore V6 so they can sit at the lights and tear away at their opposition (until they hit second gear and get reeled in). Falcon owners appreciate the better base for mods and spell the word talk T-O-R-Q-U-E which isnt in a commodore V6 vocabulary.

Hey im a P Plater and i havent seen a vp or any earlier model get away from me at the lights always the opposite,even the vs's until 2nd gear clunks in,then catch back up n pass again (need new auto. hoping to get manual though...) and as for burnouts - its doin quite fine

[G3R3N]

No comment on this thread

[Rollin]

Owner: Justin
Vehicle: 1992 Supercharged VP Commodore
Dyno Power Results: 314 rwhp (234 rwkw)
Best Official Times Recorded: 12.50 sec @ 108mph
Modifications:

* 16 PSI Universal Power-up Pulley Kit
* Supercharged V6 Intercooler Kit
* Front Mount Intercooler and Plumbing
* Intercooler Mounting Accessory Kit
* 3" Mandrel Bent Cat Back Exhaust
* HM Stainless Extractors
* MAF-less tune
* LSD (3.46 Ratio)

Owner: Michael Gordon
Vehicle: 1998 Supercharged VT SS Commodore
Dyno Power Results: 296 rwhp (221 rwkw)
Best Official Times Recorded: 12.60 sec @ 106mph
Modifications:

* 17 PSI Universal Power-up Pulley Kit
* Supercharged V6 Intercooler Kit
* Front Mount Intercooler and Plumbing
* Intercooler Mounting Accessory Kit
* Hot Cam
* Twin Exhaust
* Extractors
* Manifold Heat Insulator
* LSD (3.73 Ratio)

ETC ETC. None of these cars have had an insane amount of money spent on them. Full exhaust, pulley kit, intercooler kit seems to be the norm.

VP don't come with blowers, so there is your 2.5k goooone, just for the engine conversion. 234rwkw is fucken pathetic on 16psi boost - BI6TIM makes nearly that much on 8psi with a rising rate reg and stock ECU! VTSS makes 221rwkw on 17psi, which is even worse! I reckon it would cost you 2.5k just for the cam and exhaust, if you had to pay for labour too. And 17psi with a cam is more airflow than with a stocker too.

Teh V6 is teh ghey.

[Dansedgli]

No comment on this thread

Yet you post in it? Post whoring is gonna get you banned shortly.

[G3R3N]

Fair enough.
I was just refering to the ultimate motor thread where there was talk of VTs and L67s and stuff. That is all

[oneredED]

VP don't come with blowers, so there is your 2.5k goooone, just for the engine conversion. 234rwkw is fucken pathetic on 16psi boost - BI6TIM makes nearly that much on 8psi with a rising rate reg and stock ECU! VTSS makes 221rwkw on 17psi, which is even worse! I reckon it would cost you 2.5k just for the cam and exhaust, if you had to pay for labour too. And 17psi with a cam is more airflow than with a stocker too.

Teh V6 is teh ghey.

All valid points. But they're pulling mid 12's with the same power that an E-series would pull a mid 13 with. Hell, the eaton is essentially a big air heating device that happens to produce some boost, however power delivery means a lot, and on the street most of the time these cars would hand a turbo e-series it's arse on a platter because few people race to the speeds required for an e-series to pull back the ground lost off the line. I realise disagreeing with you is "against the forum T+C" Dan, but these cars are pulling numbers on the strip to back up their "petty" power claims and to claim that as crap is just a tad one eyed.

[Rollin]

I didn't say the cars weren't fast, I said the engines made shit power on lots of boost. I didn't even bother mentioning my car makes 270rwkw on only 10psi....

The reason they are going fast is because the cars they are in are a lot lighter than the eqivalent e-series model, and I'm willing to bet that none of those cars pulled those times with street tyres, and that there was at least a cursery amount of attention paid to the suspension setup. I reckon a stock ED 4.0 would pull an easy 13 in a KE70, but does that make the engine 'good' because it makes the car it is in go fast?

E-series cars with that power level don't go that fast because bugger all people run slicks, and bugger all people have 'drag' setup suspension - usually we are all down in the weeds, sikent styles. Also bear in mind that people understate their mods - how many times have you heard genIII owners say they pull 11s "unopened", but upon further questioning you find they have a bigger throttle body, MAFless tune, intake manifold, valvesprings, bigger valves and head porting?

OED666 does a 13.8 with 160rwkw, you think he could do no better than a 13.5 with an extra 74rwkw?

You have to admit that the 3.8 is hardly an efficient motor if it requires damn near twice the boost to make the same power output as a 4.0.

I'm buggered and about to go to bed, but I wouldn't mind Eabaturbo piping up in this thread and giving us his previous best times, and the power outputs they were achieved on - IMHO they wouldn't be far shy of the commo boys, while using a motor from the wreckers and less boost.

Just having a quick flick through Hiboost's build thread, he claims a 12.5@105.7mph with 250rwkw at 13psi in stinking hot weather, with axle tramp, and the auto apparently shifting at 4000rpm.

[oneredED]

I didn't say the cars weren't fast, I said the engines made shit power on lots of boost. I didn't even bother mentioning my car makes 270rwkw on only 10psi....

The reason they are going fast is because the cars they are in are a lot lighter than the eqivalent e-series model, and I'm willing to bet that none of those cars pulled those times with street tyres, and that there was at least a cursery amount of attention paid to the suspension setup. I reckon a stock ED 4.0 would pull an easy 13 in a KE70, but does that make the engine 'good' because it makes the car it is in go fast?

E-series cars with that power level don't go that fast because bugger all people run slicks, and bugger all people have 'drag' setup suspension - usually we are all down in the weeds, sikent styles. Also bear in mind that people understate their mods - how many times have you heard genIII owners say they pull 11s "unopened", but upon further questioning you find they have a bigger throttle body, MAFless tune, intake manifold, valvesprings, bigger valves and head porting?

OED666 does a 13.8 with 160rwkw, you think he could do no better than a 13.5 with an extra 74rwkw?

You have to admit that the 3.8 is hardly an efficient motor if it requires damn near twice the boost to make the same power output as a 4.0.

I'm buggered and about to go to bed, but I wouldn't mind Eabaturbo piping up in this thread and giving us his previous best times, and the power outputs they were achieved on - IMHO they wouldn't be far shy of the commo boys, while using a motor from the wreckers and less boost.

Just having a quick flick through Hiboost's build thread, he claims a 12.5@105.7mph with 250rwkw at 13psi in stinking hot weather, with axle tramp, and the auto apparently shifting at 4000rpm.

Rollin, you bite way too easily mate

But just a little more to keep you going, I'm enjoying this (and not because I'm winning, cos I'm obviously losing here haha)

I'm aware those cars probably have more mods than they've listed, and well that's just not fair haha. I'm am going of my personal experience with my brothers statesman, which whilst it doesn't have the pulley kit nor intercooler, it has the basic supporting mods to go with them already done (less than $1k), and his car still fricken hammers off the line, easily low-mid 14's. It shames an XR8 sprint from standing start and from roll-ons at 110km/h. Anyways, back to the grind...

Those eatons are not making those boost levels up the top of the RPM range, but they are making them at 1200rpm. As you would know it's the usable area under the curve that is important, not just the peak figure and for that reason these cars are fast. When these blowers get up around 15-16psi at higher RPM's, they're starting to become extremely inefficient and you'll find most drop as much as 5psi across the top end from around 4000rpm upwards.

Secondly, I CBF going into costings last night, but I do believe I posted that it would be $2.5k after BPU. This usually includes an exhaust of some kind, but more to the point my brother paid around $350 for a 3" system but he had to fit it himself. I have NFI what V6 extractors are worth, but I'll assume $550 not fitted. I don't believe the cam is totally necessary for the gains we're talking about given the difficulty in changing it. Now, we know that the injectors are well up to the task and the standard computer is a Delco (LTDHO uses one?) all that is really needed is a fuel pump and supporting mod's are done. So $1.1k down?

Next is the pulley kit, I CBF finding the exacts, but I believe it's around $600 for the kit with interchangeable pulleys. The intercooler kit, is around $1500 (but I CBF looking). Then there's little things like intake mods and the heat sheilds. Assuming you do all the labor yourself (as most eseries owners would do) then that's around $3k including exhaust in a running but un-tuned state.

Now to me, for the times they are pulling, for the cost involved to your average do-it-yourself punter it is not too bad. Obviously their potential is extremely limited, but going back the start of all this crap was the "bang for your buck" value, and I honestly believe they present SOME value and should not be discarded. A falcon motor (in a falcon) will need similar money spent on it to achieve similar times, and whilst the motor is not great (**** putting it in a falcon), it manages to do it's thing.

[Schmee]

Or you could do what a mate of mine has done drop the ol supercharged six into a WB ute after removing supercharger and bolt on a GT35/40 running some reasonable boost I think and dont quote me here around 17psi KEAS tricked up c9 with stall and a commo diff with 3.45 LSD add a wolf to it and run high 10's without too many dramas

From memory this little package is rollin around the 330 rwkw scene so all in all not a bad bus

http://www.fullboost.com.au/gallery.php?dirSection=racing/drag/2007&dirStory=heathcote_071020_holden&image=14&maxImage=204


I know this goes against bang for buck but compared to most guys who have done the same amount of work to an e-series he is pretty well infront

this is also a known assosiate of Tim's EABATurbo

[Rollin]

3k for a 13.something is not bad I suppose....if you can live with the fact you're a commodore wanker

They must have seriously revised the modification path for those motors recently though, because a few years back I was trolling though streetcommodores.com and all the blown 6s with those mods were pulling low 14s - I was loling at them because my car was doing 14.5 with cam/exhaust/diff gears....that intercooler kit must work really well.

I'd still like to know an exact list of mods required to run those times, with accurate prices - I'm guessing it's a lot more than they claim.

P.S. I just remembered sunny's turbo kit - IIRC he got it all in for 3k or so? It would do a mid 13 with a bit of traction and practice IMHO...180 or 184rwkw?

P.P.S. I love a good intehnet argument as much as the next guy

[93edxr6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8QdQtjO ... re=related


fear the inline 6