Where is the compression going?

by **Sunboost** » March 16th, 2008, 12:56 pm

Hey Guys,

Dilemma.

EF 4L. Dead stock. Has a compression reading of ZERO from the 4th cylinder. Does not blow any smoke, does not blow the dipstick out. In my wisdom I decided without any further testing than that, that we should change the head as it's likely a busted valve, burnt valve or busted seat. That's actually what it says in the book.

Doing this, did SFA besides wasting a lot of time, money and energy on a massively hot day. In addition to that, the timing chain tension has increased to a level that creates a dizzy shaft whine so decided that it needs to be adjusted or fixed before we can start the car again. Removed tensioner plug and filter and inserted 3mm allen key. Turned it clockwise and the fucking tension didn't release. WTF IS WRONG UP WITH THAT SHIT TOO!!!!

Rocker gear is same some lifters have changed and all appear to work ok.

Ideas? On compression and tensioner.

by **Commando** » March 16th, 2008, 1:11 pm

RE: tension... Clockwise? Is it a reverse thread or something?

by **Sunboost** » March 16th, 2008, 1:23 pm

The book says clockwise until it locks after 3/4 of a turn

by **Damo** » March 16th, 2008, 1:44 pm

pull the tensioner housing thingo out and then reset it all properly. :mrgreen:

As for compression that's weird as, did you put oil down the pot to see if it made any difference ? Didn't get the motor off Niko did ya.

by **Sunboost** » March 16th, 2008, 2:10 pm

ho do you pull that out without busting it?

Does it take for ever?

by **93edxr6** » March 16th, 2008, 2:18 pm

hey what about a crack in side of block?? small hair line one??

by **John_LS1** » March 16th, 2008, 2:50 pm

the piston rings are probably stuffed.

the tensioners are easy, take the whole lot out and and see how it works, they do seize up. give it a good clean and sand paper the outer sleeve. make sure it moves freely in the hole.

by **Sunboost** » March 16th, 2008, 3:02 pm

it's one cylinder and it doesn't blow smoke?

by **John_LS1** » March 16th, 2008, 3:14 pm

sounds like an odd problem. so even when you crank it over with the compression tester it doesnt move the guage at all? do the oil thing damo said and see if it creates some compression. if not ive got no idea. maybe the block is warped causing it to lose it out the side? im running out of ideas

by **Sunboost** » March 16th, 2008, 3:16 pm

The guage registered 10psi on one shot and that's the most we got.

It's fukked, no idea what the go is!!

by **spope** » March 16th, 2008, 3:17 pm

Doesn't blow smoke ever? Not even at 5000 rpm?
I've had two engines with stuffed oil rings, but neither blew smoke till they were well up in RPM.

It is also possible that your compression rings have cracked/split/shattered and your oil ring is still fine.

by **Parfrey** » March 16th, 2008, 4:14 pm

sure its not in the rocker gear?? holding a valve open.... maybe somethings up with a lifter.

by **galapogos01** » March 16th, 2008, 5:46 pm

John_LS1 wrote:the tensioners are easy, take the whole lot out ...

i cant get the fucker out! if anyone has access to the tool you need to remove them, let me know...

by **Sunboost** » March 16th, 2008, 6:58 pm

Doesn't blow any smoke. Zip, nil, zilch, nothing, naada!!! Only ONE cylinder.. the rest register 150+

Parfrey the lifters have been moved around so can't be that, I'll try different cam and valvetrain next weekend as the next resort.

Jason, try an air hammer.

by **AaronEF8** » March 16th, 2008, 7:04 pm

So you changed the head, and the compression from cyl #4 is still pretty much zero? All pistons are the same colour? No rust marks or black spots in cyl 4?

Sif you still need to read a book to do a head gasket!

by **simon5574** » March 16th, 2008, 7:20 pm

The only time i have seen zero compression without something majorly obviously fkked is when there is valve gear dramas, ie had a broken valve spring in my XE.

It must have something to do with rocker gear - can you turn it over with rocker cover off and visually check that valaves are doing their job properly - sometimes it looks ok when it's not

by **Rollin** » March 16th, 2008, 10:56 pm

Snapped rod? Does the piston actually move up and down when the motor is turned? Take the plug out, put a long skinny screw driver down the hole and crank the engine slowly and carefully by hand...see if the screwdriver moves the full 99mm....

by **93edxr6** » March 16th, 2008, 11:04 pm

i like that idear rollin +1

by **John_LS1** » March 17th, 2008, 7:32 am

galapogos01 wrote:
John_LS1 wrote:the tensioners are easy, take the whole lot out ...

i cant get the fucker out! if anyone has access to the tool you need to remove them, let me know...

i do have the propper tool but you can sometimes use long nose pliers to undo it.

A snapped rod would surely make some loud clunking noises

by **Sunboost** » March 17th, 2008, 8:16 am

Yeah I thought about the broken rod thing as well, but yeah I don't think the motor would be so quiet and still be smooth if it was something like that.

The valves have all been changed obviously now that the head has been replaced. The rocker gear is really the only top end stuff that could be fkd. As for bottom end, I've got NFI.

Was way too hot to fk around with it yesterday. I was gunna start by giving myself a crash course in the tensioner system but yeah, heat FTL.

by **EBOOST** » March 17th, 2008, 5:44 pm

yeah it say valve train problem or possibly the compression tester isnt sealing for some reason on that cylinder.
does the car missfire. if not then it cant have no compression.
and yeah id say it wouldnt be rings as it would have heaps of crank case pressure, and it would still have some sort of compression.
but yeah take rocker cover off and crank by hand and see if all the valves actually move.
cheers josh.

by **Rollin** » March 17th, 2008, 10:27 pm

If the rod let go with the piston at the top of it's travel (which is the most likely place) then it may not make any noise. Cars with compression with missfires are noticable because there are pumping losses from the dead cylinder, which make the engine noticably unbalanced.

If there is no blowing smoke, no chuffing out the oil filler cap, then the cylinder must be doing no work. The only way for a cylinder to be doing no work without blowby into the crankcase is:

a) Valves not seating
b) Plug not firing
c) injector not firing
d) Piston not moving

Even if there are no rings on that piston at all, it will still draw some air/fuel into the cylinder and be visible as blowby.

Anything related to the bottom end will be visible easily. You changed the head (did you move the lifters that were in #4 to somewhere else?) so you would assume the valves on the new head would be working ok. Assuming you moved the lifters around then you can assume that the valves aren't being held open, so there goes "a", and given that there is no compression you can discount "b" and "c" as problems.

Just pull the plug out and have a look - it will take 5 mins tops to check.

by **Steady** » March 17th, 2008, 10:34 pm

I put $100 on it not being a rod thats let go.

by **Damo** » March 17th, 2008, 10:41 pm

is this Dans car ?

by **Rollin** » March 17th, 2008, 11:51 pm

Steady wrote:I put $100 on it not being a rod thats let go.

Well, mr smarty-pants, what do you think it is

Lifter or rod pretty much...

by **Dansedgli** » March 18th, 2008, 4:58 am

Damo wrote:is this Dans car ?

Nah, this one is a red one with an EL front. My engine is in A+ condition.

by **ned** » March 18th, 2008, 9:08 am

Slap a NOS kit on it Sunny, see if it helps to loosen things up a little lol.

by **Rollin** » March 21st, 2008, 7:10 pm

Sooo....do any diagnosis today?

by **EL XR8** » March 21st, 2008, 7:40 pm

Rollin wrote:
Steady wrote:I put $100 on it not being a rod thats let go.
Well, mr smarty-pants, what do you think it is

........a 6 cylinder...........hahahaha

by **AaronEF8** » March 21st, 2008, 8:51 pm

If it was a broken rod, wouldn't said rod not travel in the usual up & down motion, and travel out the side of the block, or through the sump?

by **Schmee** » March 21st, 2008, 8:58 pm

Not always Aaron_EF8 depends on where the rod has broken if it has broken just above the cam journal piston travels to the top of the bore and stays there

I busted a rod in an ol 307 chev snapped it just below the gudgeon pin piston went to the top of the bore and stayed there rod dropped down and just ran up and down the wall of the bore, still managed to drive it 25kms home made a hell of a racket but just keep on chugging

some do some dont

by **Sunboost** » March 21st, 2008, 11:02 pm

Piston moved up and down.

I gave the timing chain tensioner a crack today for the first time in my many years of EA-EL molesting. Got it all out sweet, and then jammed it in and set the tension. Worked A+++++ with good tension.

Then set about figuring out what the problem was.

After much head scratching, decided to remove rocker gear and leave cam in place, meaning that all valves would be fully closed and if the compression problem was related to valve train assembly we'd know straight away after this exercise. Guess what, 160PSI.

So, changed the whole rocker rack to another EF one that I had sitting around that had a couple of lifters in it here and there. Changed all the lifters, bolted in - NO COMPRESSION at ALL. Crank, crank, crank and finally 2 cylinders come to life, then 3, then 4, then all 6!

So, one of the lifters was fkd - and as for no compression on cranking after changing all the lifters and stuff - wtf? I can't believe anyone with an EF or EL who has done a cam change hasn't encountered this, and if they have, why didn't they fking mention it! The lifters must need to seat or bleed down properly or whatever after changing them.

It's late i'm tired i hop eeverything makes sense.

by **Kaddis** » March 21st, 2008, 11:05 pm

Good to hear you got it all sorted.

Bit tired from dirty dak's last night? i hear you were smashed? haha

by **ned** » March 22nd, 2008, 12:42 am

Quick question... what should the compression reading be for an EL?

I just tested mine tonight and got bang on 180psi across all 6 cylinders.

by **Rollin** » March 22nd, 2008, 12:44 am

Unlucky!

Well....lucky too...swapping whole engines FTL.

by **Thanatos** » March 22nd, 2008, 5:45 am

The lifters need to bleed down before the valve can close fully. The easiest way is to soak them in some auto trans fluid for an hour or so before you put them in

by **Sunboost** » March 23rd, 2008, 5:28 pm

Kaddis wrote:Good to hear you got it all sorted.

Bit tired from dirty dak's last night? i hear you were smashed? haha

You saw I was smashed more than heard lolz. I vaguely remember bumping in to you no idea what was said.. lol.

by **simon5574** » March 23rd, 2008, 10:10 pm

Parfrey wrote:sure its not in the rocker gear?? holding a valve open.... maybe somethings up with a lifter.

Parfrey FTW

by **Sunboost** » June 2nd, 2008, 4:17 pm

Sorry for the bump.

I just talked to a 11ty year experience Ford Technician about this problem. He specifically escalates problems that cannot be sorted out by dealers to Ford Engineering.

I went through everything with him, and he couldn't pick it to be the lifters even after I told him absolutely everything that had been done.

1 in a million problem FTL.

by **EFFalcon** » June 2nd, 2008, 4:21 pm

Sunny is smarter then 11ty year experienced ford tech

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