Making an ED handle

by **XGXR6tt** » July 17th, 2011, 10:00 pm

So my XG is being retired with it's heart and soul going into an ED sedan. I have absolutely no experience with the EA/B/D suspension and brakes, what are some good mods or packages available? Beside the obvious good shocks/springs/bushes, wheel align and slotteds with good pads. I'm thinking a set of dodge viper calipers as they are cheap in the states and my buisness is Vipertas lol, 4 pot fronts and 2 pot rears. I can turn up the adaptors. Any little tricks with the suspension, like the shelby drop for the old setup?

by **AaronEF8** » July 17th, 2011, 10:22 pm

More castor. Whiteline used to sell shortened radius rods, I had a set on my EF and they were epic. Of course they pull the wheels forward though.
I'd say most off the shelf springs are too hard in the front, and too soft in the rear, although it's probably to promote understeer so shit drivers don't die.

I've never seen anyone do a Shelby drop on an E-Series, it could possibly help, but the wishbone angle seems alright on a lowered car.

I reckon ladderbars in the rear would make them handle a lot better too, cut out the shitty rear-steer.

by **ed40** » July 17th, 2011, 10:55 pm

Let us know how you go, keen to improve mine. I have king superlows, koni reds and adjustable swaybars, handles good but still a bit too much body roll (i think i might need shocks rebuilt).

Keen for more lock!

by **EFFalcon** » July 18th, 2011, 8:32 am

tyres
tyres
tyres
tyres

by **XGXR6tt** » July 18th, 2011, 9:03 am

Yea was only using the shelby drop as an example. Castor is always good and weighs the steering down a touch which I like. Yes I run yoki semislicks EFFalcon so grip isnt an issue. Anyone got a pic of some ladderbars in an ED, I'll make some up

by **XGXR6tt** » July 19th, 2011, 8:57 am

Think I may have seen it on here else where but can you swap the AU spindles, or the whole k frame and arms to allow the fitment of hat style brake discs and the brake upgrades offered to AU/BA falcons?

by **EFFalcon** » July 19th, 2011, 9:22 am

you need to swap the whole kframe.
and its not a straight bolt up, need to redrill/stud the rails.

BBQ Burners build thread has the best documentation on this.

by **LUXO_8** » July 19th, 2011, 9:31 am

An alternative to that is the UPC 330mm +28 brake upgrade. Modified e-series spindles to allow clearance for a 330mm mustang rotor and VE calipers. It is near enough to au offset and IS bolt in if that was a concern

by **XGXR6tt** » July 19th, 2011, 6:46 pm

I'm a mechanic and am pretty handy at engineering so fabing and what not isn't too big of a deal. I'm running 16 inch rims is all so the 320mm BA rotors would be preferable. I rekon I'll get a full set of calipers off of a viper from the states for my calipers and mount them up. I do work on an XC cobra race car and we modified the hub to take the BA 320mm rotor with a brembo radial mount 4pot caliper all inside of 16s. And I would like to stick with the 16s as thats where I get my semi slicks from lol. LUXO how much is the UPC kit?

by **LUXO_8** » July 19th, 2011, 6:56 pm

i got my kit seccond hand for 1k, but heres the ebay link

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FALCON-BIG-B ... 20bb267a65

by **XGXR6tt** » July 19th, 2011, 9:54 pm

Hmmm wonder if i could ask them to supply the hubs only, then I could mate up my size rotors and a pair of 4pots. How much more wheel track does the AU run over the EA-ED? My 16x8 superlites off my XG fit my ED and dont stick out too far so I'm using them

by **AaronEF8** » July 19th, 2011, 10:32 pm

ED-AU (actually, XD-FG) use the same wheel track, Pre-AU has 0 offset, while AU-onwards use +36 offset.

by **XGXR6tt** » July 19th, 2011, 10:46 pm

Ah so its only the wheels that changed? And the clearance issues with late rims on early models

by **AaronEF8** » July 19th, 2011, 10:56 pm

No, if the offset of the wheels changed, and the wheel track stayed the same, obviously the suspension also changed.

AU-onwards rims don't fit the front of pre-AUs, there's been about a billion threads on that.

by **XGXR6tt** » July 20th, 2011, 11:08 am

So the UPC kits look like a factory E series spindle or stub axle modified to take the AU hub. I'm going to make some up myself. Use ba XR8 320mm rotors and the 4 piston radial mount calipers. Should be sweet

by **Raptor** » July 20th, 2011, 4:11 pm

XGXR6tt wrote:....Any little tricks with the suspension, like the shelby drop for the old setup?

The front end's pretty good with above mentioned alignment tweaks (+caster, -camber) and quality tyres. What really needs sorting out is the rear steer from the live axle setup. Tickford E-series and later EF/EL had the top rear trailing arms relocated closer to the axle. See the 'Get Control' article on the Whiteline website that was originally published in a Top-Fords magazine in the mid-late 90's.

I also seem to remember the EF or EL had a relocated pivot for the watts link to change the roll centre height (just like in todays V8SC), could be as simple as swapping diff covers.

Links to article; :good:

<http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/get_control(a)_Top-fords.jpg>
<http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/get_control(b)_Top-fords.jpg>
<http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/get_control(c)_Top-fords.jpg>
<http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/articles/get_control(d)_Top-fords.jpg>

by **apoc** » July 21st, 2011, 11:21 am

Nice find, pretty good read there.

My AU XR8 had a huge camber setup, looked like a race style thing. Dropped the Upper control arm mounts about 30-35mm & moved them right in against the body. Handled like an absolute machine!
Was pretty much point and shoot, just fire it at a corner and it would turn in not a problem. Only a touch of understeer, but that might have been cos I was going so quick lol.
(My XR8 had IRS though which would help).

I wonder if the same sort of kit might be available for e-series? Add this with a decent roll-centre at the rear and I think it would handle decent.

by **XGXR6tt** » July 21st, 2011, 4:14 pm

I know this ED already has a camber kit in it but I havent chucked it up on my hoist yet. Mmm I like the sound of lowering the control arms a bit in the front, dont spose you took any pics while you had it apoc? Those articles are good, I'll def compare the diff covers and see what if anything is different. Maybe lengthening or shortening the mounts to the body also, take some measurements

by **XGXR6tt** » July 21st, 2011, 4:31 pm

Have emailed whiteline regarding the above kits, wonder if they still do them, thier site only offers swaybars.

by **JETEL6** » July 21st, 2011, 10:26 pm

i know for a fact that the EF/EL Tickford Models had a 20mm lower Watts link mount on the diff cover, as well as shorter upper control arms.

the same watts link mod was done to all EL Sedans to improve stability!

Short of that my car is fitted with the usual suspects (matched springs/shocks, HD swaybars F&R, selected polyurethane bushes, camber/caster adjustments...) as well as XR6 Upper Control Arms and it handles like a dream!

by **SNR** » July 21st, 2011, 11:39 pm

Big swaybars.

Also, from what I understand, the rear diff cover in AU has an even lower pivot than EF/L covers.

by **XGXR6tt** » July 22nd, 2011, 8:45 am

Lowering the centre point of the pivot would require lowering the body mounts also unless lowering the vehicle, which i am doing so should be ok. I'll just have to check geometry at few points before and after fitting the AU cover. Yea sway bars are always a big help, especially with the e-seriers body roll. Cheers for all the help so far guys

by **apoc** » July 22nd, 2011, 9:22 am

So question, I have an EL XR6 diff in my EB, should I have used the EL watts link rods? Cos my EB ones fitted, but since then it tramps like a biatch. Even though it shouldnt. My bushes are probably all stuffed though!
The diff has definitely improved the handling of the car though, especially as its lowered. Need a front alignment & camber kit and it would be sweet.

by **XGXR6tt** » July 22nd, 2011, 11:28 am : **4LitreFactory Likes this post**

No, I think if the vehicle is lowered then it'll bring the geometry back to stock. Ie if the roll center on the diff is 30mm lower and then u lower your car 30mm then its all the same but with a lower roll center. Take most people who would lower thier car and leave the stock roll center, that would be counter productive. So whiteline now are a bunch of useless c#!ts, sent them the links that are above anbd asked if they did the kits or had any specs on the upper arms. They offered me sway bars and the front upper arms lol. I'm thinking i'm going to use an AU cover plate with EL XR6 upper bars and rebush the whole back end. The car has new munroes, not they are worth a pinch of crap but it'll do for now and ill lower it 50mm and add the blade adjustable swaybars f & r. I have the upper camber kit in the front so I'll dial in 2 degrees of camber and I'll see how much castor I can get, maybe modify the rods as the shortened ones are no longer available. All this with yoki semi slicks and it should turn like a sled

by **mrselfdestruct** » July 22nd, 2011, 11:51 am

The watts link rods are the same, I have done the same swap and checked the lengths at the wreckers. I did the EL XR upper trailing arms at the same time, didn't really notice an enormous change to be honest. The rear end did feel a little more planted but nothing too spectacular.

Don't bother with the adjustable rear swaybar unless you like drifting.

by **apoc** » July 22nd, 2011, 12:59 pm

XGXR6tt wrote:Mmm I like the sound of lowering the control arms a bit in the front, dont spose you took any pics while you had it apoc?

Nope didnt take any pics. :banghead:

Pulled the front rims off and just sat there in awe of the whopping camber kit haha.
Cant find any info on anything like it either! Might be something from the states, the guy that had it before me used to get bits from over there for it (throttlebody, intake spacer, cam etc).

by **AaronEF8** » July 23rd, 2011, 5:47 pm

Nope didnt take any pics. Pulled the front rims off and just sat there in awe of the whopping camber kit haha.

What do you mean 'whopping camber kit' ? I thought you said the upper wishbones were lowered?
It won't be 'something from the States', Falcon suspension is Falcon specific.

Gotta say, I thought this thread had potential. Now I realise I should have just said in my first post 'King springs, new shocks, wheel alignment, front swaybar' and left it at that. Someone who doesn't know about AU offset wheels talking about custom making brakes scares me

by **XGXR6tt** » July 24th, 2011, 8:51 am

Lol I havent mucked around with E series or Au wheels, never had to so why would I know about the offset? All my cars have been pre E series I.e. I've done an XC pannelvan, an XC cobra, XB ute, XD sedan and an XG ute. I custom made the brakes on the cobra just this year, It won its class in targa tas, only one of the most premier tarmac rallies in the world. And the only mod over previous years was the brakes (get to rebuild the engine this year :grin:

roller cam upgrade). I'll be copying that brake design but with the E-series hub. With the cobra we made up 30mm spacers and bolted the BA disc on to the back of the wheel nut flange, after machinig the whole disc off the original hub, so as to get the disc inboard far enough. I'll look at the upper control arm angle once I've lowered it and If its not fairly parallel then it'll be relocated.

by **SNR** » July 25th, 2011, 12:25 pm

The blade adjustable front swaybar likes to hit my tyres at full lock (which is a pain)

Also worth considering:

changing the rear roll center height with the diff hat means you are changing the roll axis of the car, it would be interesting to see how much of an effect this has on the car (and if the AU setup in some way has a slightly different front roll center to accommodate the standard roll center with the AU diff cover)

by **galapogos01** » July 25th, 2011, 1:19 pm

Does anyone have measurements of the link pin height for the various diff hats? I have a suspicion my diff is from an EL but want to confirm.

BTW, my car was useless with EL XR upper arms (in the right points on the diff), the tailshaft hit the floor on hard acceleration.

by **Duffman** » July 25th, 2011, 1:38 pm

galapogos01 wrote:Does anyone have measurements of the link pin height for the various diff hats? I have a suspicion my diff is from an EL but want to confirm.

BTW, my car was useless with EL XR upper arms (in the right points on the diff), the tailshaft hit the floor on hard acceleration.

you sure you had the in the furthest back holes? should angle the pinion down decreasing chance of tailshaft hits

by **apoc** » July 25th, 2011, 2:07 pm

galapogos01 wrote:Does anyone have measurements of the link pin height for the various diff hats? I have a suspicion my diff is from an EL but want to confirm.

BTW, my car was useless with EL XR upper arms (in the right points on the diff), the tailshaft hit the floor on hard acceleration.

Hmm, my EB does the same thing with an EL XR diff. I thought it was just too low, Ill have to have another look at the mounts.

by **mrselfdestruct** » July 25th, 2011, 2:20 pm

How did you guys go about fitting the EL XR trailing arms? I had to make a template of an EL bracket and then use that to drill a new hole in mine. No problems with pinion angle or anything like that and the ride height is a little lower than with King Superlows.

by **AaronEF8** » July 26th, 2011, 12:42 am

How did you guys go about fitting the EL XR trailing arms? I had to make a template of an EL bracket and then use that to drill a new hole in mine.

That's what you do with the Whiteline trailing arms too.

The angle of the rear arms is what causes the back to lift up/squat etc, depending on how low the car is (specifically the lower arm angle) lowering the diff mounting point of the upper arm will increase anti-squat.

This site explains it fairly well, although it's an old thread so most of the links are dead.
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/4-link- ... 62245.html

Lol I havent mucked around with E series or Au wheels, never had to so why would I know about the offset? All my cars have been pre E series I.e. I've done an XC pannelvan, an XC cobra, XB ute, XD sedan and an XG ute. I custom made the brakes on the cobra just this year, It won its class in targa tas, only one of the most premier tarmac rallies in the world.

Fair enough.
If you want to make the wishbones parralel to the LCA on a lowered E-Series, you'll need to mount the wishbone about 100mm higher, which you can't do with the stock sheetmetal.
Wishbone angles (when viewed from the front) are what sets the front roll centre, on E-Series they're pretty low.

A decent example of how to measure roll centre on a double wishbone front end, and what it does.
http://www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk/forum/ ... topic=3337

Thinking about it, it put's the front roll centre of a lowered E-Series pretty damn low, raising the front roll centre would probably be a step in the right direction.

by **galapogos01** » July 26th, 2011, 9:10 am

axeman83 wrote:you sure you had the in the furthest back holes? should angle the pinion down decreasing chance of tailshaft hits

Yep. It has an EL diff in it so the holes are already there.

It's to do with how low the car is. I had to get under it and draw a few diagrams to work out WTF was happening. It causes the tailshaft to hit in a different spot than with the EF arms. Mine's not even that low, but under hard acceleration with grip and people in the back it would hit every time.

Kinda keen to see what the deal is with the diff hats, whether mine has an EF or EL hat, and whether the EF vs EL watts link arms are different lengths. Could be part of the cause.

by **apoc** » July 26th, 2011, 9:29 am

I've got an AU, EB, EF & EL-XR diff, Ill see if I can get some measurements of the different watts link mounts. Maybe some pics of the pinion housings too.

Think AU & AU-XR would be different?

by **SNR** » July 26th, 2011, 12:16 pm

They may not have been Apoc, remember a lot of the development time and money went into the IRS which was on most XR's

by **XGXR6tt** » July 26th, 2011, 4:35 pm

All AU xr6's ran IRS i thought so the AU will only have a standard arm, tho if the watts link is relocated then maybe the arms are different...?

by **EFFalcon** » July 26th, 2011, 4:49 pm

only VCT XR6's & XR8's had IRS.
the HP's got live axle.

by **XGXR6tt** » July 27th, 2011, 9:30 am

Ah nice, so i'm getting conflicting advice towards the EF upper arms and weather they are better or not. I can get them brand new off nolothane for 230 a pair

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