Making an ED handle

by **AaronEF8** » July 27th, 2011, 1:23 pm

Going by these old pics I have, I don't know if the arms will even fit.

This is of my EF, It's an S1 V8 Fairmont

And this is an arm next to a Whiteline arm that was meant to suit EA-EF S1.

by **galapogos01** » July 27th, 2011, 4:51 pm

XGXR6tt wrote:Ah nice, so i'm getting conflicting advice towards the EF upper arms and weather they are better or not. I can get them brand new off nolothane for 230 a pair

EF XR upper arms are useless alone. They used a special body mount to get the extra length. If anything you want EL XR.

by **SNR** » July 27th, 2011, 8:37 pm

That explains a lot

by **XGXR6tt** » July 28th, 2011, 9:56 am

Yea I was at my wreckers yesterday trying to find a good rear bar for the big girl and compared arms. There is alot of differenced through the models. To fit any of them I'd need a later model diff housing as they have the two holes for the arm location, and yea the mount at the body is different. I'll check out the el arms next time i'm there, it was hard to tell models as they all had no fronts or doors or anything. All i could do was go yep thats EA-D or EF-L or AU, except the ones on the ground where i could check the plate. The AU ones actually looked longer..?

by **apoc** » July 29th, 2011, 8:56 am

Got a couple of pics, cant get EF/EL ones atm as my gf is driving my EB, and I just broke the jack trying to check the EF. So will add those a bit later.
-EB watts link mount is 140mm from the top of the centre housing, & ~512mm from the inside of the RHS LCA.
-EB Upper arm is ~340mm between bolt hole centres.

-AU watts link mount is 160mm from the top of the centre housing, & ~512mm (same) from the RHS LCA.
-Dont have an AU upper arm.

Going by the pics you can see the watts link mount has gone down a fair way in relation to the fill plug.

Ill get EF & EL XR ones and add them in a bit later on.

by **AaronEF8** » July 29th, 2011, 6:34 pm

Yea I was at my wreckers yesterday trying to find a good rear bar for the big girl and compared arms. There is alot of differenced through the models. To fit any of them I'd need a later model diff housing as they have the two holes for the arm location, and yea the mount at the body is different. I'll check out the el arms next time i'm there, it was hard to tell models as they all had no fronts or doors or anything. All i could do was go yep thats EA-D or EF-L or AU, except the ones on the ground where i could check the plate. The AU ones actually looked longer..?

Why don't you make some adjustable ones up? And I thought you were going to make your own ladder bars?

Attempting to change roll centres/arms/motion ratios etc is fairly advanced, you should start with the basics, IE bushes, balljoints, shocks, springs and a decent wheel alignment. They don't handle too badly once you get used to the rear-steer, which is a lot less noticeable once the car is lowered.

by **XGXR6tt** » July 30th, 2011, 6:08 pm

I looked into laddrbars and they wouldn't achieve what i want for street use. Adjustable is definately an option. I hate rear steer unless i'm causing it with the throttle, If I can minimise it in any way i'll go for it. Will be lowered as soon as it goes over the pits and I'll throw sway bars and nolathane at it. It has munroes but i'll either get kyb's, konis or gabriels i rekon, depends which one my supplier will do the best deal on. I've done a ton of wheel alignments in the last couple months so i'll probably do that myself as a tyre place is always of the opinion that close enough is good enough lol

by **SNR** » July 30th, 2011, 8:58 pm

Has anyone ever looked at relocating (lowering) the lower suspension pickups at the front of EA-L to recover some of the built in camber gain on squat for a lowered car? Was reading some interesting articles (almost unrelated, re: GrpA BMW E30s) where they moved the lower points down for this exact reason, the camber gain on squat is not usually linear and diminishes almost completely on an already low car. By relocating the lower arm pickups further down, the car is lowered slightly from where it was, but the roll center (And hence camber gain through suspension movement) is changed. I'm tempted. Not sure how game I am though!

by **AaronEF8** » July 30th, 2011, 10:11 pm

E30s used McPherson Strut though didn't they?
If you have another look at the link I posted earlier on how to measure roll centres, and have a look at the wishbone/LCA angles on a lowered E-Series (LCA angles down from the spindle to the K-Frame) the roll centre is virtually on the ground. I'll take a couple pics tomorrow and try to actually work it out. If anything you want to raise the roll centre on a lowered car with a double wishbone front end, to stop some of the bodyroll.

I remember when the Bathurst 12hr/24hr races were happening in the 90s, Through Sulman, McPhillamy Skyline and down into The Esses is all about working a cars front end, and EF XR6s were keeping up with Ferrari F355s.

Greens-Tuf basically ran ladderbars too.

by **AaronEF8** » July 31st, 2011, 9:06 am

Here's a very quick pic I made up, it's too cold outside ATM to do it with my car lol

I know it's an extreme example, however it's only 80-100mm lower than what most lowered E-Series are.

Knowing the Centre of Gravity would help a lot, but from what I've read, I put it around the height of the number plate. The distance between the roll centre and centre of gravity is what makes the car roll. The bigger the distance, the more bodyroll.

That explains why lowered King Springs are quite hard in the front, to counter the extra bodyroll they produce.

Who wants to go parts in buying susprog3d?

by **XGXR6tt** » July 31st, 2011, 11:46 am

So by that image what your saying is that if the inner lower bush was moved higher up the K frame the roll center would be moved closer to youe center of gravity and that would reduce body roll? Thats assuming that bottom line is following the angle of the lower control arm? Or are you saying lower the outer ballljoint? I'm thinking I'll but a wrecked E series once mine is on the road and muck around with the geometry, make up the K frame and then transplant into mine for road testing.

by **AaronEF8** » July 31st, 2011, 3:08 pm

Either/or, but it's going to be a lot easier/safer to raise the LCA on the K-Frame than it is to lower the balljoint on the spindle.
You'll have to look at clearance issues when moving the LCA up on the K-frame though, so the arm doesn't bottom out on the K-frame or chassis rail. You'll also run the risk of inducing extra bump steer into the front end too, which is something you'll have to consider. [Edit] - On top of all that, moving the LCA up will cause problems with the radius rod not being on the same plane as the LCA, which can cause binding issues, and will change the anti-dive properties of the front end.

The red lines represent the LCA/wishbone. In that pic, I reckon I've put the LCA/K-Frame mount too high up, so the roll centre will actually be under the ground.

The easier thing to do is not lower the car so much.

[Another edit] - I reckon you could flip the 'camber kit' upside-down to drop the wishbone down about 50mm, it would be the easiest/cheapest way to see if you can notice a difference.

by **SNR** » July 31st, 2011, 9:32 pm

You would have to "make" clearance for the LCA and relocate both that AND the radius rod at the same time.

Won't dropping the upper wishbone change the effective length of the upper A arm and hence the camber? I guess that's basically the "shelby drop" principal though. You could easily fab up a bunch of different sections to bolt where the camber kit goes to fine tune the upper wishbone if it makes as big a difference as it sounds it would.

Yes the E30 had Macpherson strut, main reason I've been reading all that is for my E21 project. I still haven't quite got my head around the double wishbone setup as well as I understand Macpherson strut now.

I wonder if anyone has any under-car pics of the EB-F touring car front ends... Anybody got any contacts? (are there any in any museums anywhere? I don't remember seeing any at the Ford Discovery Center)

by **SNR** » July 31st, 2011, 9:34 pm

Also Aaron, re your pic at the start of this page, I put EF arms (out of a fairmont) into my EB, they were the same length as the EB arms (I only changed them as the bushes were in better nick than mine) - Perhaps the tickford and v8's all had the shorter arms, with different body end mounts and the different diff holes?

by **AaronEF8** » July 31st, 2011, 9:46 pm

I wonder if anyone has any under-car pics of the EB-F touring car front ends... Anybody got any contacts? (are there any in any museums anywhere? I don't remember seeing any at the Ford Discovery Center)

Haha, I was thinking the same thing today. I do have pics of the front end of DJR's first EB, but they're in a magazine in SA.
I did my learning on MacPherson struts today.

Also Aaron, re your pic at the start of this page, I put EF arms (out of a fairmont) into my EB, they were the same length as the EB arms (I only changed them as the bushes were in better nick than mine) - Perhaps the tickford and v8's all had the shorter arms, with different body end mounts and the different diff holes?

That's all I could think of too, although that diff only has one set of holes that look to be in the standard spot. It sounds like mine was lower than Jason's car too, it has superlows all round, but it never rubbed the tailshaft, even with 5 people and all our crap on board.
I believe my EF was optioned with 'sports suspension' so maybe that has something to do with it?
Or it could just be another Ford inconsistancy

Do you have a link for the GrpA article?

[Edit] - This is the only EB-EL rollover I can think of happening, can get 2 very basic views of the lower wishbones, they look flash - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYZ5xCWevEk

by **SNR** » August 1st, 2011, 8:13 am

Here: http://www.e30m3project.com/e30m3perfor ... /page2.htm

There are heaps of articles on there re: suspension for Macpherson strut, also a couple of sets of photos from underneath Group A E30's

by **XGXR6tt** » August 1st, 2011, 10:28 am

Also as far as the AU watts link being lower down, do they use longer arms or are the body mounts 20mm lower also?

by **SNR** » August 1st, 2011, 11:24 am

It wouldn't matter when you put them on a lowered EA-L, but I'm not sure re: your questions in regards to an AU (as many of those are quite high)

by **Raptor** » August 1st, 2011, 11:27 am

I wouldn't go relocating the LCA in the K-Frame, it'll screw up the steering geometry which is of more concern than the radius rod. The best way to keep the RC close to the CofG is not to lower it a stupid amount - more is not better in this respect.

I also remembered reading the EF/L had the steering tie-rod slightly relocated in the upright (and longer tie-rod arms?). May have been to complement the changes made to RC height at the rear.

See => http://www.boostedfalcon.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10137&p=205138

by **SNR** » August 1st, 2011, 4:26 pm

Relocating the steering rack by the same amount when moving the LCA and Radius rod would resolve that issue (but then you are basically modifying the entire K-frame and may as well just remanufacture that from scratch to be fully adjustable. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing)

by **AaronEF8** » August 1st, 2011, 4:47 pm

If you move the steering rack to suit, then you can use the LCA's Rollin had made up.

by **SNR** » August 8th, 2011, 11:52 am

If you flip the upper A arm body mounts upside-down, what effect would this have on the camber gain curve on load? I guess the easy way to find out is just do it and see how it drives?

by **SNR** » September 19th, 2011, 11:42 pm

I've got a spare set of upper A arms now, so I am going to modify them to allow the bracket to mount "upside-down". It is a little more involving than simply turning the brackets around, as there will be a clearance issue with the material at the top of the arm. I think I'm going to box the bottom of the arm (to the same point the top finishes at originally) then remove material from the top until I can move the bracket through full travel.

Will let you all know how it goes!

by **XGXR6tt** » September 21st, 2011, 8:10 pm

Keep us posted SNR, will be interesting to see how it turns out. Mine is still off the road so havent touched the suspension yet, will be one of the first things to recieve mods tho after the turbo donk goes in and brakes upgraded

by **SNR** » September 26th, 2011, 11:25 pm

I've done one of the two arms, on one of the two arms

I'll have to take some more photos of a before one as well, so you can get a feel for why this grinding etc is required. There's definitely no other way it would fit though!

by **XGXR6tt** » September 29th, 2011, 1:55 pm

Lookin good, hopefully this will give some gains in performance but the proof will be in the pudding hey

by **SNR** » September 29th, 2011, 11:44 pm : **suspect Likes this post**

Hopefully. My main concern is that the A arms will bind up on the springs at full compression. I guess we'll see when it's in the car

by **ham02au** » October 2nd, 2011, 10:01 am

by **XGXR6tt** » December 1st, 2011, 8:49 pm

How is this coming along? Have these been fitted up yet for a look at clearance?

by **SNR** » January 3rd, 2012, 10:33 am

I got stuck into the R33 bodywork and these got shelved. Cleaned up the bench the other day and these are almost done, I just need to do some grinding on the second arm so the tabs can be fit back in then we can fit it up and check clearance!

by **[D1SCNT]** » January 3rd, 2012, 6:54 pm

are you going to heat treat those arms be for you throw them on?

by **SNR** » January 4th, 2012, 12:14 am

Nothing like that planned. Do you think we should?

by **[D1SCNT]** » January 4th, 2012, 3:03 pm

well what i know is once you introduce heat to something that's cold pressed your pritty much making a weak spot.

id get them heat treated. just to be on the safe boring side.

by **XGXR6tt** » January 9th, 2012, 9:06 am

Where are we on this, I'm still very interested...

by **SNR** » January 9th, 2012, 12:19 pm

They are ready to test fit. Just need to convince ham02au to bring his car around so I can test fit them now

by **XGXR6tt** » January 12th, 2012, 7:36 am

Ah nice. Keep me posted please

by **SNR** » March 12th, 2012, 11:51 pm

So... we stopped being lazy.

We didn't put any shims back in because at first it looked like it was going to have positive camber; but that was at full droop. The camber gain is obvious when you stand on the bumper and jump up and down, it probably gains 2 degrees negative camber as the suspension compresses. Also noteworthy is the ride height - this is on Low height springs; We forgot to take a before photo on the ground, but it's dropped possibly half an inch to an inch.

Driving wise, it seems ok, but time will tell. This car hasn't got big swaybars and has questionable shocks; plus now the rear is higher than the front. We're thinking of trying some new King lows with decent shocks in the front, and superlows in the rear with new shocks and then see how it goes.

by **SNR** » March 12th, 2012, 11:55 pm

Video of the camber gain. The whole assembly settled somewhat after a drive though so we will have to put some shims in and do this again after a quick drive to show it.

by **AaronEF8** » March 13th, 2012, 12:10 am : **akorsetkoh Likes this post**

I can't watch videos on my phone

was there much difference when driving?
I forgot all about this.

by **SNR** » March 13th, 2012, 7:47 am

We'll wait to pass judgement when we've shimmed it out so the camber is roughly the same as before

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