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Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 12:43 pm
by orangeute338
when i did mine in qld the rwc guy just said its a falcon 4ltr in a falcon, and when i went to qt they just asked if i had swapped the motor because the numbers were different and just said yes that was it. end of the day its 90% the same block with just a twin cam head. because you use the same emissions and fuel system not alot changes. other states might be more anal

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 2:13 pm
by misk
yeah even if they wanted to see the ECU its an AU item so really its still an e-series setup. still EEC and the ecu doesn't know theres 2 cams on it now, but even still, none of thats illegal.

sunny, i'll be in touch when i have the mulah :)
and i agree justin, hopefully people realise that for $200-$300 you can fit one to an EF with no other mods and make it so much nicer to drive.
i cant get over how much smoother the motor is.

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 2:43 pm
by MMD
I hope you don't get someone at vic roads who knows what they are doing :shock:

XH's were rated to 148kw stock - Ba 182kw - so you are above the 20% power increase, which means you have to get a VASS cert.
And it was not a factory fitted option to the vehicle.
In order for the engine to meet emissions it needs to be run using a stock unmodified matching ECU.

Having said that none of my cars meet these standards.
Vic laws suck, hope they give you no hassles.

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 3:29 pm
by misk
I'm not even going to waste my time replying to that...

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 5:27 pm
by Dansedgli
orangeute338 wrote:
Sundeep wrote:So lemme get this straight - you're running a BA motor with AU ECU, wiring and coil pack? Didn't FTG Salvage try that a few years ago and fail?


yeah but they didnt know what they were doing, lol. im pretty sure they didnt cut the prongs off the cam so wouldnt have run right. its pretty common conversion now i did it about a year ago there is a thread i put on the ford forums step by step what needs to be done etc. i took the idea from the thread that FTG had about doing it and worked out how to make it work properly


Did you cut the prongs off the cam misk?

Good work. It would be interesting to see how it goes compared a stock BA on a dyno.

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 5:38 pm
by misk
yeah mate, its pretty easy to see why that works. the AU cam sensor only looks for a spike in volts at TDC once per engine revolution.
the standard BA cams has 4 prongs, one in TDC on either side of it at 15 degrees and not sure about the angle of the other, but it looks to be around 45 egrees.

it wont have the lower down torque of the BA due to the VCT not operating but overall it will be very close cause of the weight difference.

at the end of the day an engine is only as good as the tune in the ECU and you can have an ECU with all the features in the world but you can still get similar results with a good map in a lesser ECU.

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 6:49 pm
by orangeute338
the vct doesnt change much at wot anyways its mostly for fuel econmany and emissions.

swapping a ba into a dead stock au with just a 3inch intake to the stock airbox was .5 second faster on the 1/4 so even stock for stock its a improvement for not much money and then the gains in the end are what will be more. think running au tb and ecu will lose a bit of power compared to a stock ba but few mods and twin cam would be making way more then a au eva would and still good fuel and drive like stock.

the extra prongs are for the vct and the sequential coils the au ecu only needs to know when the engine is at spark stroke on cyl 1. its all pretty straight forward when you think about it.

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 7:00 pm
by orangeute338
good thing too the ba motor is lighter then the au motor, and the valve train is a lot lighter, hollow cams and single row chain so they want to rev easier.

they reckon at idle the cams are advanced 10deg to make it idle smooth. thats 10deg to crank angles tho not

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 7:02 pm
by misk
yeah im loving it, got a massive smile on my face every time i drive it.
the car feels so smooth and tight with the good gerarbox and is just a pleasure to drive.

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 7:40 pm
by turbo_will
Damn man one day I check your thread its sohc then next week its got the barra in there. Fastest conversion ever, top job. Now boost that sucker :drinks2:

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 7:55 pm
by orangeute338
how much does the xh weigh? be good to see what times it can run down the 1/4

heres the tables for the vct from stock ba na and bf turbo

the numbers are meant to be degs of crank, im not 100% sure on the numbers. what you guys reckon?

they say there is 60deg either way of adjustment(max in the ba table is +48). but the cams im pretty sure only have about 30-32degs of movement when i measured them. if the cam spins at half the speed that would make the max deg double what the cams would be so around 60deg max -30+30??

you can see in the table the vct doesnt adjust much at wot.
Image

Image

and they reckon they sit at 10deg at idle, in the table its 20deg which would be 10degs on the cams

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 8:58 pm
by misk
haha yeah will, i don't **** around these days ;)
i learn everything and then some of what i need to know before i do shit and then do it as quick but properly as possible

i love how nice is it to drive, its not easy to explain lol.

josh do you have the timing tables?
would be good to know what for did from factory so i can build on that. not too sure how to approach the timing map...

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 8:59 pm
by misk
thanks for all the kind words though guys. really appreciate it
:drinks2:
i'll be keen to bring the car out to any cruises etc so i'd be more than happy to show people and answer any questions etc.

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 9:49 pm
by needfordspeed
Done real well man, good stuff!

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 10:20 pm
by orangeute338
funny you should say i kept forgetting to have a look at the differences, just looking now its surprising to see au runs more timing then ba na auto. spark borderline knock is the table the other one spark MBT is max that it can be with adding timing with multipliers but on a normal 30odd deg day will be pretty much the Borderline knock figures

heres the timing maps, there is iat and afr multipliers that affect it and a lot of other things but gives you the general idea.

Image


and bf na 6spd for comparasion
Image

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 11:18 pm
by Parfrey
I thought you were doing well to have rego... :grin:

Good job with the engine, keen to see where you go with it. Makes for an easier conversion into another car too (ie a 4x4 ;) )

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 11:52 pm
by misk
man i'm keen to put a barra into anything with wheels now haha. seriously such an easy conversion and for $300 in total (including paying someone to weld the sump) you can't beat it for what you get in return.

if i had an EF i'd hold off buying extractors and neons for the foot wells and spend th money on a barra motor :D

thanks for that info josh. what i would really like to do is set the timing to standard (with the fuel maps trimmed to suit the motor) and just see what its like and then add timing from there.

at the moment i'm running the spark map i was using with the 1521a cam so i'm not sure it's suited that well to the engine.

i did some data logging tonight so i'm just about to adjust the tune. its running in 9-10:1 at wot so theres improvements to be made for sure!

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 14th, 2014, 6:36 am
by orangeute338
Just put a stock au map in, that would be the best tune for it. Timing is simliar to bf tune well more timing even and afr should be in the 12s with the stock map so perfect

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 14th, 2014, 6:56 am
by orangeute338
Just put a stock au map in, that would be the best tune for it. Timing is simliar to bf tune well more timing even and afr should be in the 12s with the stock map so perfect

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 14th, 2014, 7:15 am
by misk
i'm getting afrs around 9-10:1 with a standard AU map man lol and thats with AU injectors.
idles at 22inHG at 9:1
i did a datalog run last night so will adjust the tune soon and have another crack at it.
at the moment it goes harder at 3/4 throttle than at full throttle, but it feels so much stronger than the previous motor.

i'm gonna be the poster boy for this mod lol

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 14th, 2014, 12:00 pm
by orangeute338
i thought u said you had a map in there to suit a big cam:S

what fuel pressure reg are you running theres no reason it should run that rich if anything it should be leaner in the top end if the barra was to flow a bit better.

whats the plugs and coil pack like are they new? that can cause a rich mixture also.

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 14th, 2014, 12:08 pm
by misk
nah i put in a standard AU map, **** trying it with the map for the big cam lol.
a friend explained it will run rich because its more efficient.
i'm using standard BA reg and AU injectors.
its idling at 22-24inHG so no vac leak or anything.
plugs are bit old but i cleaned them up, i'll replace the plugs and leads on friday. coil pack isn't new but i've got a couple, they're all fine.

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 14th, 2014, 12:26 pm
by galapogos01
Make sure it's a NA rego and not turbo ?

9:1 is extremely rich! ie. Misfiring and blowing smoke and not running rich! Your wideband calibrated correctly?

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 14th, 2014, 1:01 pm
by orangeute338
tell your friend hes dreaming, running rich from using more fuel? lol like saying you will run rich when you run more boost

in open loop the ecu only knows a few things. there is no airflow meter so it doesnt actually know how much air is going in, it just knows what should be going in from the maps. so with a dead stock au motor it would say 5000rpm 0vac iat 35deg coolant temp blab blab. you need 70% duty cycle so if you have 80% efficiently you might get 12.5afr then add your ba motor the ecu still only knows the same data thats given to it but not you are burning the fuel better since you have higher comp and better airflow. so now your 90% efficent and your afr will be leaner.

9s is very rich, when i tried the ba turbo fpr with the au ecu the afr wasnt even that rich.

whats the afr when you have the 02 sensor disconnected while ilding?

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 14th, 2014, 3:56 pm
by misk
that data is all with the 02 sensor disconnected from the ECU.
my wideband is callibrated yes. i did it before putting it in the XH. its running rich, you can smell it and it isn't burning well when it is that rich.

can't explain to you why its running that rich, i've always had a problem with the AU maps running rich.
don't really care anyway cause i'm tuning around it, so its all good...

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 14th, 2014, 4:56 pm
by krisisdog
Just change the injector slope to a few lb/hr less?

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 14th, 2014, 5:04 pm
by misk
you want the injector slop higher not lower and i set it to 20 and was still very rich so then i started changing the VE table.
it is what it is!
i'll see if its any different after new plugs and leads and i'll get another coil pack maybe.

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 14th, 2014, 6:47 pm
by orangeute338
whats the afr at idle?

i have 60lb injectors in my au and i have the injector slope at about 35 i think and it runs 15afr without the o2 sensor hooked up(so open loop the whole time). i would leave the ve table and just adjust the injector slope till you see around 14-15afr at idle without the 02 sensor plugged in. then see what the afr is like at wot.

but change the plugs first and check the fuel pressure also if you can might be a blockage somewhere on the return line, my mate put a high flow pump on and even with the return pulled off so straight out of the fuel pressure reg into a bucket it would only run min 60psi on a stock au reg, having the ba fuel rail and reg shouldnt be a problem tho but something to check if you can, my mate had bad plugs in the barra au and it was running in the 9s on nos but we found the plugs were all worn and the gap was about 3mm. causing it to be so rich because just wasnt burning the fuel but that was at wot

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 14th, 2014, 6:54 pm
by krisisdog
Yeah same difference, knew what I meant :p
I'd change it to 24.

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 14th, 2014, 9:25 pm
by misk
the numebrs o the VE table are over 80 standard, i can afford to change them lol.
i only see a point in changing injector slope once its out of fuel in the table.

the entire table would be over 15 if i had a standard map idling at 15:1 without changing the VE table. they run rich...

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 15th, 2014, 8:11 am
by krisisdog
Runs at 9-10:1 at wot and idle, and I'll assume through the rest of it as well.
Quick fix would be change yeh inj slope or .7x the whole ve table?

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 15th, 2014, 12:24 pm
by orangeute338
what is the afr at idle with the stock map? without the 02 sensor hooked up?

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 15th, 2014, 5:33 pm
by turbo_will
Sounds a bit weird man ive seen some odd shit with afr widebands try ignoring it and tuning till its running happiest. 9s should just break down into a rich stumble spark issues and bulk black smoke. Id try sort idle first and see what wideband reckons from there. The barra motors prob don't need much timing as they are a more efficient design. If your logging rpm with logworks you can compare rpm traces in a set gear to get a rough idea how things are improving.

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 15th, 2014, 6:58 pm
by misk
lol i dont get why this is so bizarre?
all the signs that point an engine running rich are there, i have it running in the 12s now at wot and between 13-14:1 everywhere else

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 15th, 2014, 7:13 pm
by turbo_will
good stuff runs heaps better then? How much did you have to remove?

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 15th, 2014, 7:21 pm
by galapogos01
The lower timing in the newer motors will be for emissions. Not necessarily because they don't want it :)

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 15th, 2014, 8:26 pm
by orangeute338
so you don't know what the afr was at idle with the stock map? if you arent getting stoich in closed loop then you obviously have a problem and saying you are just tuning around its a fix. have you wired the ecu in properly? how is the battery is it old? low voltage can give slopy DC and make it rich.

au runs more timing then the bf na i would say its because the au has a lot less compression.

I highly doubt emissions has anything to do with WOT. if that was the case then your saying a na with 180kw has the same emissions as a turbo with 240kw? at wot

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 15th, 2014, 8:39 pm
by misk
why would i have a problem if a standard map isn't going into stoich on an engine its not designed for?
you seem to know a bit about BA+ but how many different standard maps and ECUs have you actually tunes from an e-series?
they all run rich standard.

its doing my head in to think you guys expect it to run perfect out of the box with no tuning...

will i havent had a chance to drive it much, i'm broke and i'ts basically running on fumes so have to wait til tomorrow before i can tune more or drive it.

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 15th, 2014, 10:31 pm
by orangeute338
misk wrote:why would i have a problem if a standard map isn't going into stoich on an engine its not designed for?


well do you understand how open and closed loop works?

Re: XH ute - barra swap finished!

PostPosted: January 15th, 2014, 11:30 pm
by misk
i do, what i'm saying is even in standard form i've never seen a falcon achieve 14.7:1 when cruising.