Big Brake kits etc. It's getting boring I know...

by **Malakai** » March 13th, 2009, 10:51 pm

Good stuff.

If I can get a UPC kit for around $1000 then I might just get a set of four territory steel wheels and some cheap 17" tyres off ADXR8 until I can bear to fork out for some better wheels. Who knows Territory steel wheels all round might look hot! :idea:

by **nothin suss** » March 14th, 2009, 9:29 am

Was reading thru the feedback and one of those UPC sets went for $700 a few months back. I guess occasionally they flog them off 'no reserve'?

by **Ef_frmnt** » March 14th, 2009, 9:36 am

i had a pair of ceptor 17s you could have used for awhile but i cant find them at the moment.

if they are prepared to sell them that cheap then they cant say no to three guranteed sales at $1000

by **mickyyyy** » March 14th, 2009, 11:39 am

organise a group buy then

I'll still be seeing my engineer to see what he can come up with which im sure he can

Been in the game for 25yrs has over 40 brakes kits for verious cars

Does chassic work like mini and full tubs, Roll cages, bigger tunnels and the rest of it

Has done a couple E series with 9in and ABS and over a dozen with his 4 spot willwood 330mm setup

I'll keep you all posted

by **nothin suss** » March 14th, 2009, 12:41 pm

mickyyyy wrote:I'll still be seeing my engineer to see what he can come up with which im sure he can

Less interwebbing more talking then..

by **LUXO_8** » March 14th, 2009, 1:10 pm

i'd be up for a groupbuy!.... time to start savin! :clapping:

hope my wheels fit but

by **mickyyyy** » March 14th, 2009, 5:17 pm

nothin suss

im doing this purely as a hobby and love mucking around with cars.

I dont need bigger brakes as i drive a standard EF XR6 so theres nothing in it for me other than doing something i like and other can get the full benefit of it.

Im doing this 2 help everyone on this forum and fordmods forum and im taking my time to get this kit 2 all you guys. If you dont want it or dont have any interest in it then dont bother posting in this thread and organise a group buy for everyone who wants a UPC kit.

by **adxr8** » March 14th, 2009, 7:28 pm

Rollin wrote:My new housemate has a T3 TS50 (which is for sale if anyone is looking...) so if I have some time on the weekend I'm going to pull his and my uprights apart and see if there is any chance of getting an AU hub to fit (like sleeving the E-series upright or something) and what the offset ends up being with said Au hub fitted.

I really have no memory of what they look like so it's probably going to be impossible, but I won't know till I have a look.

If anyone has any spare ED uprights or AU hubs/uprights hanging about feel free to let me know...

I have a spare set of uprights willing to donate to the cause and also have access to a small lathe for machining purposes ( spaces/shims), Dan you have my details and the guy with the lathe has more than reasonable rates, you give him sizes he will do...

by **Rollin** » March 14th, 2009, 8:57 pm

So I checked my axles today, and surprise surprise, LHS is twisted like Commando's mind. Dropped in to my local friendly yellow cabs workshop and picked up another, and a couple of AU uprights with hubs for $60.

Been very busy today so haven't actually looked at them yet, I'm keen for a look tomorrow.

Obviously it's going to be harder than we are all expecting, otherwise someone would have already done it by now...

by **nothin suss** » March 14th, 2009, 9:30 pm

mickyyyy wrote:nothin suss

im doing this purely as a hobby and love mucking around with cars.
I dont need bigger brakes as i drive a standard EF XR6 so theres nothing in it for me other than doing something i like and other can get the full benefit of it.
Im doing this 2 help everyone on this forum and fordmods forum and im taking my time to get this kit 2 all you guys. If you dont want it or dont have any interest in it then dont bother posting in this thread and organise a group buy for everyone who wants a UPC kit.

Not having a dig at you mate... Comedy is hard to convey and recognise on the interweb sometimes. Should have added an emoticon.
I am 100% interested in a brake upgrade, and im 'watching this space'. I'm keen to give help or input but looks like you guys are all over it. Fingers crossed a good package comes out of it.

by **Rollin** » March 15th, 2009, 11:41 pm

I had a bit of a look at the AU hubs today, fails all round.

It seems that Ford doesn't use the actual hub to achieve the +35 offset in AU, it looks like it is actually the upright that comes out further to dictate it.

Even if the hub went straight on it would be pointless, it doesn't have the correct offset, if anything I think it would pull the wheel in more :/

AU:

AU hub "offset":

Length of e-series stub axle:

I also checked the AU assy against a set of 17x9.5 drifteks I bought the other day. I didn't get pics but they will bolt straight on to an AU hub/upright with about 5mm clearance to the upright, on an ED upright you need about a 20mm spacer to enable the wheel to spin, so at a pinch I could get the UPC +28 kit and be done with it, but I want the wank factor of 4 or more piston brakes

Going to investigate further BI6TIMs idea of a scratch built lower control arm to fit an au upright. It would really be the best way to go - that way people that just want AU offset can throw a set of stocker brakes on there, and people who want to go hard-out can get Brembos from a FG F6....

by **BI6TIM** » March 16th, 2009, 6:36 am

The problem is, Dan, the legality of such a lower control arm. The reason I gave it away is because of the possible costs of the ADR approval.

I suppose you could go without the ADR approval but then you have two more problems.
1. You can't sell the kit in good conscience to others as their safety would be your responsibility.
2. If you crash with such a lower control arm in you car and somebody find out it's there, you'll have no insurance, even if it wasn't to blame for the accident.

by **mickyyyy** » March 16th, 2009, 8:27 am

Nice work rollin

So pretty much you carnt interchange parts from E series to AU like uprights???

So then custom spun hubs would have to be made up to use any brake setup you like???

by **Malakai** » March 16th, 2009, 9:48 am

Can you get a UPC kit without the calipers? So that you can source your own four piston ones or ask UPC if they can supply four piston calipers instead of the two piston ones.

by **LUXO_8** » March 16th, 2009, 10:19 am

BI6TIM wrote:The problem is, Dan, the legality of such a lower control arm. The reason I gave it away is because of the possible costs of the ADR approval.

I suppose you could go without the ADR approval but then you have two more problems.
1. You can't sell the kit in good conscience to others as their safety would be your responsibility.
2. If you crash with such a lower control arm in you car and somebody find out it's there, you'll have no insurance, even if it wasn't to blame for the accident.

i wonder if a hotrod shop or the like would take the idea onboard....they make custom front end parts all the time.....
would be worth having a chat to them at least.....
even if it worked out to being like 700 or 800 for the arm(is that even a realistic figure), the rest of the components can be had so cheap it'd still be worth it

its a way of doing it i hadnt thought of......the au upper arm will bolt right in yeh?

by **Rollin** » March 18th, 2009, 12:15 am

Tim have you ever tried to actually fit an AU upper arm or did you just take measurements? I suppose the first thing to do would be to make sure an AU upper bolts straight in - two custom arms would push the price through the roof.

I've found a place that builds/used to build V8 supercars and who have done lower control arms for others for the street.

On a case by case basis apparently it isn't too hard, just get an engineer to look at it and throw a blue plate on (in QLD anyway). Obviously my main concern is that it doesn't kill me :blink:

but I think this place should be able to do something strong enough.

Obviously, if the purpose of the arm is to be fitted to random dudes cars across Australia then it gets a bit more involved.

I'm going to go see them on monday after I drop my car at the panel beaters to see what can be done. Was also thinking that the bottom ball joint could be offset slightly forwards to give a little more castor...

Hopefully the price isn't farkoff ridiculous - I'm prepared to pay about 1k a pair or less for the arms, and I think that would still make it acceptable for others to buy too - that way if you just want the offset change and slightly bigger brakes you can get some stocker AUII callipers and rotors from the wreckers for under $1500 total, but spend as much as you want if you want to go bigger.

ATM I'm looking for a spare ED type LCA, spare AU LCA and an AU upper - I don't need to keep them, just borrow for a while for demonstration purposes. Anyone got anything in Bris that can help?

by **93edxr6** » March 18th, 2009, 4:45 am

dont know if this is much help but theirs a blue ed xr6 on ebay with ve calipers and 330mm discs off a mustang mite be worth wile asking him about his setup? ill get the link give us a sec.

by **93edxr6** » March 18th, 2009, 4:47 am

heres the link dont know if its any help

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Ford-Falcon-ED-X ... 240%3A1318

by **EFFalcon** » March 18th, 2009, 6:55 am

That ED has a UPC setup.

by **93edxr6** » March 18th, 2009, 10:14 am

ok so no help

by **galapogos01** » March 21st, 2009, 5:25 pm

read this:

http://www.fordmods.com/commercial-spon ... 5b93f00789

by **Rollin** » March 21st, 2009, 7:27 pm

That doesn't help - still E-series offset... Although if the disc has the same offset (disc relative to calliper) as AU and you can buy the uprights and hubs seperately then people should be able to run any AU/BA stuff they want but with e-series wheels.

by **Nikk O'lass** » March 22nd, 2009, 10:51 am

Commodore boys have it easy with big brakes eh...

by **old_mate** » March 22nd, 2009, 7:11 pm

that looks to be a good kit if you were to stay eseries offset, i dont recall what rollin is so desperate to go AU (hopefully its not just cos of drifteks lol)

by **hypo_4.0L** » March 22nd, 2009, 8:30 pm

new to the club, howde all.
I am a mechanic by trade and have also been looking at a possible brake upgrade to fill my wheel size a bit better. to the best of me knowledge the uprights for EA through EL are the same as wheel bearing kits and disc rotors are the same as goes for the offsets of the hubs. The uprights on the AU series through to BF (possibly even the FG series) are what is referred to as the later series uprights. for any brake upgrade to be a simple bolt on fitment the rotors must be a complete hub type not a floating type as in the picture posted. An upgrade i have been looking at is toyota hilux 4WD front calipers (4 Piston) with a 5mm adapter plate to mount to the falcon uprights only down fall is rotors are not still standard.

by **Rollin** » March 22nd, 2009, 10:29 pm

EA-D and EF-L have different uprights - the angle of the 'arm' that the steering rack ball joint attaches to is on a slightly different angle.

old-mate - you're dead on the money.

Buy the wheels, make the wheels fit the car

17x9.5s are going on the front come hell or high water, and that includes serious front guard modifications as well.

by **old_mate** » March 22nd, 2009, 10:47 pm

cheaper to do FR17's with a eseries offset by the time you have finished mucking around lol

by **Rollin** » March 22nd, 2009, 11:33 pm

a) FR17s don't push my buttons anywhere near as much as drifteks do. Like, by a factor of LOTS.

b) I would still need proper brakes.

c) Other people want AU offset and/or cheap upgraded brakes (like a stock AU twin piston setup).

d) Probably a possibility for making a new lower arm with more castor built in - not sure about later e-series but the early ones don't have much at all.

etc...

by **Rollin** » March 25th, 2009, 12:02 am

Just found this on nissansilvia.com: http://www.nissansilvia.com/forums/inde ... pic=296510

You'd have to request the center bore measurements, and I'm guessing get nissan wheel nuts or fit ford studs to them, but for those of you running spacers with no center support I reckon the above bad girls would be a good idea.

I had a chat with the racecar guy on monday and he reckons he can build something plenty strong enough for 1k or less for a set. The problem then is getting them legal. He gave me the name of a guy in Brisbane to talk too but that guy no longer does the certification/testing, and told me to ring QLD Transport :/ He said it costs about $1500-2000 for certification. I asked him a heap of other questions in the email but he didn't reply, so I'll have to find out more later on.

by **hypo_4.0L** » March 26th, 2009, 8:16 pm

i know a cheap way of getting the uprights to handle the brake upgrades available to later model falcons. put complete AU uprights on the E series suspension. of course making certian the tie rod ends will suit the change of upright, and then you can take a measurement of wheel overhang past the guard and get any mag wheel repairer specialist to machine off the needed amount to fill the guards nicely cost may be varied but shouldnt be much more than a few hung. or another option is if you have aftermarket wheels buy 2 more to siut the Au series offset and presto problem solved.

by **holmsy** » March 26th, 2009, 8:19 pm

talking about taking metal off the centre of the wheel?
pretty sure not a good idea. depending on the wheel but take to much off and the base that the bolts hit on the wheel will be way to thin or non existant.

by **hypo_4.0L** » March 26th, 2009, 8:29 pm

yeah true true that holmsy, something that must be discussed with the machinist prior to any work being carried out. but worth looking at depending on the wheel centre.

by **67rce** » March 26th, 2009, 10:05 pm

hypo_4.0L wrote:i know a cheap way of getting the uprights to handle the brake upgrades available to later model falcons. put complete AU uprights on the E series suspension. of course making certian the tie rod ends will suit the change of upright, and then you can take a measurement of wheel overhang past the guard and get any mag wheel repairer specialist to machine off the needed amount to fill the guards nicely cost may be varied but shouldnt be much more than a few hung. or another option is if you have aftermarket wheels buy 2 more to siut the Au series offset and presto problem solved.

If it was that simple, everyone would do it.

by **Rollin** » March 26th, 2009, 10:58 pm

hypo_4.0L wrote:i know a cheap way of getting the uprights to handle the brake upgrades available to later model falcons. put complete AU uprights on the E series suspension. of course making certian the tie rod ends will suit the change of upright, and then you can take a measurement of wheel overhang past the guard and get any mag wheel repairer specialist to machine off the needed amount to fill the guards nicely cost may be varied but shouldnt be much more than a few hung. or another option is if you have aftermarket wheels buy 2 more to siut the Au series offset and presto problem solved.

Maybe you haven't really read the thread clearly. Or looked at the pictures posted above. AU uprights do NOT fit on e-series upper OR lower arms. If they did, I would have had AU uprights on my car with better brakes about 2 years ago. The ball joint areas on the uprights/upper and lower control arms are all in the wrong positions, it's not possible to use them directly.

Hence, I'm going through all this rigmarole with QLD transport to try and get some fabricated arms happening, to enable the use of AU uprights.

If you fit AU uprights and have E-series wheels, they will poke out somewhere around 35mm - no wheel in the world can be machined that much, and I'd go so far as to say that machining the mounting surface of ANY wheel even 5mm would make it seriously unsafe to use. I certainly wouldn't use a wheel that had had more than probably a millimetre taken off the center.

by **Rollin** » April 20th, 2009, 6:21 pm

LOL I Finally got a reply from QLD transport:

Rollin wrote:To whom it may concern,

I'd like some advice on the correct processes to go through to get two fabricated suspension arms tested and approved for legal road use.

I have read the available pdf from the qld transport website relating to light vehicle suspension modifications and it doesn't give me the
information I need.

I wish to upgrade the brakes on my ED Falcon, as it is used for normal road use during the week and also some non-competition track use on the weekends - at the track it suffers badly in the braking areas.

Due to the design of the front suspension it is not possible to just fit larger brake discs and rotors from another model directly to the factory
suspension.

I wish to use factory AU falcon stub axles/uprights and factory AU upper control arms, which will enable the fitment of any factory AU braking
package with ease.

To do this, I need to have a fabricated lower control arm built, to match the AU uprights with the ED front subframe, as the AU lower arm is not compatible.

I have a metalworker who is confident that he can build some suspension arms for my car that far exceed any durability requirements QLD Transport may have, having done this type of work before for his own road vehicle.

I have not asked him to start work on the arms as yet, because I am unsure of the legal requirements surrounding them.

- Who do I have to contact to arrange testing/certification for streetuse?

- Could I have an approximate cost for the testing?

- Will there be any requirements to have the entire front suspension system inspected if all factory ford parts are used (with the obvious exception of the lower control arms)?

The lower control arms will be specifically built to enable fitment of the AU uprights ONLY, and will have NO effect on the ride height of the
vehicle or the ability to change the ride height of the vehicle other than by the normal replacement of springs and shock absorbers as per the factory suspension setup.

Any help and instruction on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Yours Faithfully.

QLD Transport wrote:Thank you for your email regarding fabricated lower control arms.

In regards to your inquiry, the brake substitution its self will be required to be certified under the code of practice for light motor vehicles by an Approved Persons with the applicable accreditation.

However, the lower control arms them selves will not require specific approval as they will be classified as a aftermarket replacement (used to
accommodate the new braking system). You will be required to engage in the services of a mechanical engineer to certify in writing that the new control arms are structurally sound and capable of withstanding the service loads etc. As such the mechanical engineer will be responsible for any premature failure of the device.

All workmanship must be conducted in accordance to good engineering practice.

Regards

Billy Gallagher
Assistant Policy Advisor
Vehicle Standards & Safety
Queensland Transport

So I take that to mean that I need a mod plate for the actual brakes, but not for the lower control arms, though to get a mod plate for the brakes I need a Mechanical Engineer to test the control arms and report that they are sound.

Anyone know any Mechanical engineers???

by **LUXO_8** » April 20th, 2009, 6:27 pm

thats certainly good news... i'd imagine it will be reasonably easy to get the arms legal then...

by **Ef_frmnt** » April 20th, 2009, 6:35 pm

i can get them mod plated for you dan.

by **donno** » April 20th, 2009, 6:54 pm

I know plenty of Mech Engs, and herein lies the problem. You seriously do not want to know how much its going to cost you.

My company charges out my services for $115 an hour - I'm a second year grad. Getting someone who can actually sign off on something - you're looking at upwards of $150 an hour. If you can find a contractor who has their own indemnity insurance you may get away with $100 an hour.

Assuming they're happy to sign off on the basis that the original control arm is sufficiently rated for the required duty and that the replacement will exceed it based upon the specs of the steel used and its construction - you'll be looking at least 5hrs min labor :-(

.

by **LUXO_8** » April 20th, 2009, 7:04 pm

well, i for one (and im sure others as well) dont mind pitching in to help cover the certification costs.

by **BLC** » April 20th, 2009, 7:16 pm

I really wanted bigger brakes but I'd like to keep the E-series offset, and it's quite expensive too.

I was thinking of getting braided brake lines + rebuilt calipers/booster to go with my slotted rotors all round. Using Bendix Ultimate pads - surely that would provide fairly good braking? Presumably not as good as some of these bigger kits, but a lot of it comes down to the tyre too - no point having massive brakes if the tyres aren't up to the task.

Thoughts? Am I wasting my time with the braided lines and rebuild kit?

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