The Danger of White Walls. (Taken from another site)

SnyperEB · Post by **SnyperEB** » November 2nd, 2009, 5:13 pm

Just to clarify this is not me this was taken from another forum.

Sorry any whitewall business owners, but after a lot of thought I've decided to post up these photos, I'm pretty lucky I'm not gravely injured considering it happened at 100-110km/h on a highway.

I know it's never happened before, but I highly doubt Potenza RE050A's with full tread blow out along the sidewall in such a conveniently placed location very often either.

I in no way mean to slander these businesses, as the business that applied my whitewalls have provided me with excellent service including offering to replace my tyres, but personally I want to warn against anything that may happen to others in the future.

Once again, this is not an attack, but more of a service announcement.

I can understand any type of frustration on the end of the owners, but I'm actually lucky to still be sitting here from home and not a hospital bed. I'm also very lucky to have a car with virtually no damage (it is yet to be assessed) and not written off, so there is frustration on my side too.

Any more pictures can be taken at request, however the tyre will not leave my possession unless it is being sent to be assessed by a manufacturer or tyre shop, in which case it will be under my name and I will be the sole person to collect it and drop it off.

To clarify to anyone reading this thread, this was the FRONT LEFT tyre that blew out at 100-110KM/H on a highway, they had done 9,000km and had been on the car since JUNE 2009, the whitewalls were applied a week prior to the blow out

Rollin · Post by **Rollin** » November 2nd, 2009, 6:22 pm

How the **** can paint on the sidewalls affect the tyres?

I'd put $50 on the table to say he had a puncture and didn't know, and kept driving until the tyre delaminated.

Source?

Kenaz · Post by **Kenaz** » November 2nd, 2009, 6:24 pm

How did the walls contribute to the blow out?

Michael (HYPOEB) · Post by **Michael (HYPOEB)** » November 2nd, 2009, 6:25 pm

lmao i agree,how the fuk can some paint make that happen!

bng · Post by **bng** » November 2nd, 2009, 6:26 pm

dont they cut the sidewall down atouch to apply the whiteewall?? cut off the writing so its painted on even all the way around?
doubt it would happen if its done right

Kaddis · Post by **Kaddis** » November 2nd, 2009, 6:28 pm

I can see where he could be coming from but i don't think it would of done it.

When they apply white walls the grind off a very tiny amount of tyre away for the paint to sit into but i wouldn't say it would be enough for a blow out probably the same as gutter bashing your tyre.

XR_Lightning · Post by **XR_Lightning** » November 2nd, 2009, 6:30 pm

as people have already mentioned, when white walls are put on a slice of the tyres sidewall is taken out, this is why these are illegal/un-roadworthy now

holmsy · Post by **holmsy** » November 2nd, 2009, 6:30 pm

yeh they do grind out some rubber before putting the paint on.
i have heard of some places taking so much rubber they get down to the bands n shit.
if not done right they can cause failures.

Nikk O'lass · Post by **Nikk O'lass** » November 2nd, 2009, 7:37 pm

Rollin wrote:How the **** can paint on the sidewalls affect the tyres?

I'd put $50 on the table to say he had a puncture and didn't know, and kept driving until the tyre delaminated.

Source?

This

Given that the tires profile is low, he did feel/know or could hear the tire, and she ended up ripping along the radius...

Ive seen that before, and it looked similer to this.

Post by **EFFalcon** » November 2nd, 2009, 7:49 pm

Umm... I've had a tyre do that... and it overtook me on the freeway.

only i didnt have walls.

moral of the story, don't use tyres.

Phillis · Post by **Phillis** » November 2nd, 2009, 7:50 pm

dont they sand the raised wiritng on the sidewall so that the paint goes onto a flat surface?

Post by **EFFalcon** » November 2nd, 2009, 7:56 pm

basically yeah..

Has anyone driven a car with 18+ inch wheels and had a tyre blow out?

guy above is making a big fuss out of nothing, low profile tyre blowouts barely do anything other then some vibration.

Frost · Post by **Frost** » November 2nd, 2009, 8:06 pm

My friend drove 100km on a blown 18" tire she just thought the road was stuffed.

UNEZED · Post by **UNEZED** » November 2nd, 2009, 8:19 pm

EFFalcon wrote:Umm... I've had a tyre do that... and it overtook me on the freeway.

only i didnt have walls.

lol i remember that day

Post by **fordbaby** » November 2nd, 2009, 8:34 pm

what a wanker.
you so cant blame whitewalls for that.
a tyre can blow at any time and for no reason at all, take john's car for instance.
its just unlucky if that happens and sounds like he just wants someone to blame.
IF it was the whitewalls wouldnt you have heard more about lots of peoples tyres blowing.
stupid person.

bigdell · Post by **bigdell** » November 2nd, 2009, 8:41 pm

fordbaby wrote:what a wanker.
stupid person.

it looks like a holden rim to me so.

nstg8a · Post by **nstg8a** » November 2nd, 2009, 9:51 pm

fordbaby wrote:what a wanker.
you so cant blame whitewalls for that.
a tyre can blow at any time and for no reason at all, take john's car for instance.
its just unlucky if that happens and sounds like he just wants someone to blame.
IF it was the whitewalls wouldnt you have heard more about lots of peoples tyres blowing.
stupid person.

it does happen, when people who dont know what theyre doing fark it up. thats why its illegal, as mentioned above.

wato_87 · Post by **wato_87** » November 2nd, 2009, 9:53 pm

agree with john, i have had a blowout with 18s, just happens

white walls are considered un road worthy due to them cutting into the side wall of the tyre

my mate got it done on his vs clubby with 19" signatures, got defected week later, they were brand new tyres best part of $800

nstg8a · Post by **nstg8a** » November 2nd, 2009, 9:58 pm

is it illegal in all states or just some?

im getting it done to my 17s in a few weeks, but my tyres are probably at about 60% anyway, so no biggy

Frost · Post by **Frost** » November 2nd, 2009, 10:05 pm

Most people are defected for too wide of tire, under rated tire, to large of rim.

I dont think whitewalls are acutally illegal.

Rollin · Post by **Rollin** » November 2nd, 2009, 10:11 pm

The tyre in the above pics do not appear to have been cut or ground in any way. Plenty of VE HSVs have this problem, particularly at the back. The tyres are such low profile that it destroys the sidewalls (from the inside out) even if they still have 15-20psi in them. You can't even tell the car has a puncture most times because there is SFA sidewall bulge due to the profile as well.

I got a flat on the freeway driving up to Cairns a few years back. Fully loaded car on 17s, felt a slight vibration through the car, just like it had lost a wheel weight.

Pulled off at the next exit (which was only <500m after I noticed the wobble) and had a look. RHR tyre was completely flat and the sidewalls were cactus.

You'd have to be doing something really dumb to kill yourself due to a flat tyre these days IMHO.

SnyperEB · Post by **SnyperEB** » November 2nd, 2009, 10:29 pm

Looks like he has driven on it a bit too!!

Frost · Post by **Frost** » November 2nd, 2009, 10:53 pm

I just posted this on TI

"I just watched something on the Discovery Science about Supercars. It showed the need for a thick sidewall to support a blowout.

Those sidewalls are thin compared to what are on the "Supercars" they had which were Porsche, Corvette, Ferrari's etc.

It also showed what happens when you get a flat and how the tire can support the car weight up to 50miles, including going through corners before the integrity of the sidewall is compromised.

So just a speculation based on this, your tire got a flat, the weight of the car ripped the sidewall apart in less than <50m because the sidewall is not thick enough to support the weight of the car with low/zero PSI in the tire. Like what most likely happened to BoostedFalcon

Oh and it showed a tire blowout at 200-300mph and the car seemed to survive running just on the rim."

Frost · Post by **Frost** » November 2nd, 2009, 10:55 pm

Rollin wrote: Source?

http://www.forum.teamillusiv.com/showthread.php?t=3813" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

wato_87 · Post by **wato_87** » November 2nd, 2009, 11:07 pm

Frost wrote:Most people are defected for too wide of tire, under rated tire, to large of rim.

I dont think whitewalls are acutally illegal.

he was defected due to the white walls, in vic

there 19x8 rim, the car came factory with 17x7 so they are legal size wheel, his side wall had a large channel cut unto it, only 1mm deep or so

yeah that tyre in the pic dosent look like it has been machined in, copper said due to weakening the strength of the side wall they are un road safe.

Frost · Post by **Frost** » November 2nd, 2009, 11:21 pm

Did the tire info get cut out when the channel was made? Show me in the rules that whitewalls r illegal. The cop might say it's cause of the whitewall but if the tire information is missing that's illegal cause they don't meet ADRs then

krisisdog · Post by **krisisdog** » November 2nd, 2009, 11:25 pm

Frost wrote:Did the tire info get cut out when the channel was made? Show me in the rules that whitewalls r illegal. The cop might say it's cause of the whitewall but if the tire information is missing that's illegal cause they don't meet ADRs then

Therefore tyre is illegal due to whitewall... not complicated.... no whitewall, no illegality....

bentls · Post by **bentls** » November 3rd, 2009, 2:24 am

i had white walls on my 20" rims and had 3 big eggs develop.. on the inside and nothing on the outside.. thats probly due to camber putting more weight on the inside tho..

also people think they cut deep to buzz them back.. side walls have 2 seperate layers.. with my whitewalls i dunno who did them, but they only cut into the layer of tyre which is just glued on as an afterthought with the load ratings etc printed on.. that bit is very thin and doesnt bear any of the load... the other bit is thicker and reinforced and holds the air in and the bumps out..

Frost · Post by **Frost** » November 3rd, 2009, 7:40 am

krisisdog wrote:
Frost wrote:Did the tire info get cut out when the channel was made? Show me in the rules that whitewalls r illegal. The cop might say it's cause of the whitewall but if the tire information is missing that's illegal cause they don't meet ADRs then
Therefore tyre is illegal due to whitewall... not complicated.... no whitewall, no illegality....

Look at that above picture, the Tyre Information is still there, so that tyre would be legal.

SnyperEB · Post by **SnyperEB** » November 3rd, 2009, 8:03 am

The white wall paint has come off though Frost!! You wouldnt be able to see it if the tyre was stil intact.

private9 · Post by **private9** » November 3rd, 2009, 8:16 am

There's also a line in the law about not being able to add material to the sidewall, so regardless of whether sidewall has or hasn't been shaved, or whether the writing is still legible, they're still illegal unless they were made new as whitewalls.

Frost · Post by **Frost** » November 3rd, 2009, 8:36 am

SnyperEB wrote:The white wall paint has come off though Frost!! You wouldnt be able to see it if the tyre was stil intact.

If it had been shaved off paint comming off or no paint it wouldnt be there anymore??

private9 wrote:There's also a line in the law about not being able to add material to the sidewall, so regardless of whether sidewall has or hasn't been shaved, or whether the writing is still legible, they're still illegal unless they were made new as whitewalls.

There is, feel free to show it to me because I just read VSI26, VSI8, VSI16 and there is nothing about adding material to sidewalls, it says is should be free from deep cuts (gutter bashing is ok) and no repairs to the sidewall.

private9 · Post by **private9** » November 3rd, 2009, 9:24 am

Frost wrote:
SnyperEB wrote:The white wall paint has come off though Frost!! You wouldnt be able to see it if the tyre was stil intact.
If it had been shaved off paint comming off or no paint it wouldnt be there anymore??

private9 wrote:There's also a line in the law about not being able to add material to the sidewall, so regardless of whether sidewall has or hasn't been shaved, or whether the writing is still legible, they're still illegal unless they were made new as whitewalls.
There is, feel free to show it to me because I just read VSI26, VSI8, VSI16 and there is nothing about adding material to sidewalls, it says is should be free from deep cuts (gutter bashing is ok) and no repairs to the sidewall.

This was posted on another forum, a response from Vicroads asking if they're legal:

"The removal of the identifying information from tyre sidewalls is not an
allowable modification.
The further modification of the sidewall to allow the attachment of
additional material is also not acceptable as it may affect the
structure of the tyre.

Any modification to the structure of the tyre would require the written
approval of the manufacturer and confirmation that the tyre still met
the standards.

We don't know of any manufacturer who is prepared to do this.

Any request for approval must be forwarded in writing to

Barry Hendry Manager Vehicle Standards at Vic Roads

Regards

Andrew Cruddas: Manager - Vehicle Fitness
VicRoads
1st Floor, 3 Prospect Hill Road
CAMBERWELL VIC 3124

ph 03 9811 8370
Fax 9811 8248

Attached is a link to a local Company in Carrum Downs that performs this
type of work. They have been advised by our office in relation to what
their clients can expect if intercepted with these tyres fitted.
http://www.myspace.com/southsidewalls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is advised that any vehicle bearing these tyres to be issued a Major
defect and if the member believes necessary in the circumstances, ground
the vehicles movements until suitable tyres can be fitted based on the
fact that there is a risk that the tyre may fail at any time and put the
operator and other road users at risk.

For your respective information's and forwarding to other TMU staff."

Frost · Post by **Frost** » November 3rd, 2009, 9:43 am

Ok, I think Vicroads should update their website

bentls · Post by **bentls** » November 3rd, 2009, 10:15 am

actually if you take his exact wording... they didnt say anything about adding paint being wrong...

"The further modification of the sidewall to allow the attachment of
additional material is also not acceptable as it may affect the
structure of the tyre."

which means to me you cant modify the tyre to allow the paint to stick better.. if you just paint straight over the sidewall without machining it its fine because the sidewall hasnt been modified to hold the paint.

problem is the amount of silicon on the sidewall when new will not let the paint stick it will just get silicon bubbles all through it i'd immagine.

Frost · Post by **Frost** » November 3rd, 2009, 10:41 am

Wouldnt the business have to have some sort of legal liability if they are selling a service that causes something to be illegal. IE Shaving the silcone to apply paint?

I know in WA no tire shop will fit tires other than light truck/commerical rated tires to rims on the ute/minitruck/4wd vehicle because if they fit a set of rims with tires (even if they are load rated for the vehicle weight) they accept legal liability if those rims/tires cause an accident. So they will sell them to you blind because once your out of the store its not their problem if they didnt fit them on a vehicle.

Post by **TUFED6** » November 3rd, 2009, 2:40 pm

Assuming that everything the guy says is true, it seems like too much of a coincidence that the tyre let go the way it has.

Dunno if the same concept would be true with rubber, but if you cut a channel into a piece of metal then over stress the material it will always crack along that channel because you have created an easy path for the stress to form. It's called a stress raiser. Even simply heating the tyre up as you are prepping it for the white wall may be enough to weaken it due to the heat cycling.

I reckon the reality is probably in 99% of the cases white walls aren't a problem but it will always decrease the MTBF for a tyre statistically speaking. Tyre manufacturers aren't in the business of supplying additional rubber that is not needed so that material that is trimmed away for whitewalls is probably there for a reason...

Cutting into the sidewall of a tyre has always seemed like a really shit idea to me.

Godzilla · Post by **Godzilla** » November 3rd, 2009, 4:33 pm

Any alteration that involves cutting in or sanding to a tyre is an mod that will alter the tyres stress limits.

Tyre construction is a fine art, the physics a tyre undergoes when when spinning is amazing, the centrifugal forces happening just want it to tear itself to pieces.

Buying tyres today has become a tricky business with many now coming from China as cheap alternatives with less plys and reinforcement inside.

Lower profiles with slightly lower pressures create a lot of sidewall heat that will do the same damage as the pictures above.

Me, personally, i only run Continental Sport Contact II Vmax, the only tyre rated upto 360 Kph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVrfQJj3xhs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Used by all supercar manufacturers except for Bugatti Veyron who have their own specialized tyre made up.

Post by **pHaT`eL** » November 3rd, 2009, 4:40 pm

When Instant did my walls on the wagon, all they sanded back was the writing so its smooth. Even then, you could still clearly see what kind of tyre it was etc. They said they get so many people with low profile tyres wanting massively thick walls which they do advise against.

Done incorrectly, walls are dangerous. IE Doing them yourself like the case seems to be these days.

Moral of the story is, go to a proper joint to get them done and get a SAFE thickness for the tyre profile you have!

Nikk O'lass · Post by **Nikk O'lass** » November 3rd, 2009, 5:19 pm

Given that you can see writing on the tire, i doubt that the wall had been scuffed to any great point.

Side walls also have a good chunk of rubber on the outside of them, because gutter rush is common.

Most people get defected for having white walls due to the loadratings etc being removed, a light scuff and a good clean with a wax and grease remover is all thats needed. im sure that the ink/paint that is used is also different from normal automotive paint and isn't effected by silicon.